Let's talk about love ....Have your say - 2007/06/09 16:34I wanted us to start to engage with each other in our forums around the implications of Agapē so here’s my plan. I am going to post threads from my book Until Christ is Formed in which I discuss each of the 16 characteristics of agape as enumerated by The Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 13. Read the comment [below] and then answer the question at the end and take the discussion wherever you think it should go.
Exert pp78 Agapē Is Patient “It was not immediately apparent to me why the Apostle would think to start his assent of the mountain with this characteristic until I realised how we use the word “patience” nowadays. I thought about the amount of times I had heard the expression “I am losing my patience” when I was growing up or how many times I had both heard and said, “You’re trying my patience.” The more I thought about it, the more I realised what profound effect the word “patience” had had on me during my formative years. With disturbing ease, I was able to recall the anxiety I felt and, to a much lesser extent, still feel when someone was trying to explain something to me which I did not understand. Whenever they had lost me in the conversation, I would have this terrible inner struggle about telling them that I did not get it because I did not want them to lose their patience with me. Many a time when someone gave me instructions rather than seeking clarification, I would just nod like I understood. I thought about my life struggle with instructions and it is like those demonic things which you get with self-assembly furniture. I can guarantee you that if I start working on something like it, I will “lose my patience” with it. Why? Well, it is simply because I do not have any love for things like that. Where there is no love, there is no patience but where there is love and understanding, there is an indefatigable amount of patience.
When people tell me that they are being “patient with me”, what I assume is that they actually want to beat the living daylights out of me, that they are effectively withholding their anger and thus, I should be careful not to push it too far. Consequently, in my previous religious paradigm, the god of that world would stay his anger towards me provided that I did not push him too far. I have not really seen that “patience” is calm endurance of hardship, provocation or delay. It is tolerant forbearance born out of calm self-possessed waiting. It is, in fact, core to God’s nature and is neither limited nor conditional. It simply is a descriptor of His nature. God is patient and this is completely different from stating that God is being patient to which He is not. He is patient by disposition and not imposition. When I finally realised that God was not tutting the whole time and getting impatient with me because I did not get it, that liberated me. Despite my stupidity, He never lost His patience, never chided me and never thought about getting rid of me by replacing me with someone who would get it.
For a child, I can see how this understanding of patience is integral. I had taught four children how to walk and not once did I lose my patience with them nor write them off and say to them, “You’re wasting my time, you’ll never get it.” Every attempt was celebrated. Indeed, the more they failed at walking, the more I cheered them on. Moreover, I knew that they would walk when they were ready and not before. All they got from me was the constant encouragement, “Yes, you can do it. I believe in you. I will show you how.”
It is easy to see the value of knowing that agapē is patient because it means that agapē gives us room to fail without censoring us. It also means that we are freed to not get it and yet, not be adjudged as being stupid. In short, it means that love is set in the context of assurance and therefore, it is rooted in the ground of no condemnation. Patience gives us permission to fail and consequently, permission to succeed. As we always say at The Grace Project, “If you’re not free not to do something, you’re not free to do it either.”
Q: How does the idea that God will never lose His patience with you make you feel? “Paul Anderosn-Walsh
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Matthew
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Posts: 6
Re:Let's talk about love ....Have your say - 2007/07/01 06:59I never thought of God's patience as that of a Father with a child learning. Growing up, I had the same fears, so it's encouraging to hear this.
The fact that God is always patient with me, and never disappointed, is freeing, but irritating at the same time. I, and a lot of other Christians have this tendency to be masochists. We feel that if we do not have a whip on our backs, we will become out of control and drift away. But the Bible clearly teaches that law arouses sin, grace does not. I am in no way established in grace. I feel like I'm drifting myself with nothing to hold onto, but it's been only about 2 weeks since I made a decision to live by grace.
In short, to me, God's unending patience is very scary and has the potential to become annoying. Sometimes I want to ask God, "Are you sure? I don't feel any different."
It reminds of me kids, when they're angry at their parents who yell "I hate you!", but the parent softly says "Well I love you." We have this desire to make God angry at us so that we will work harder, thus making us feel better about our sinfulness. Grace hurts because it doesn't excuse sin, but will not let you punish yourself in order to change. We're desperate to make ourselves slaves, while I think God may be yelling at us that we're sons. I so much would love to make myself a slave again at times, even though I'm anxious, worried and condemned in that place. Slavery is good medication to make someone feel good alright in their level of sinfulness. We reason we're not perfect but we're damn close, which is a complete lie.
God's patience and grace ruins Christian masochism. It makes you aware of your sinfulness, but also causes you to stay in this place of trust, that God accepts me in Christ Jesus even though I can clearly see so many things in me that need to be changed. My faith has been stretched since coming to grace and my desire to know God more has sky rocketed, because I thought I understood everything before. And honestly, before grace, I didn't like God all that much, but I put on the "God is great" attitude and figured I would just have to endure it until I get to heaven. Thank God for the few people who still preach the gospel with no fine print."No man knows how bad he is until he tries very hard to be good." - C.S. Lewis
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Matthew
User Junior Boarder
Posts: 6
Re:Let's talk about love ....Have your say - 2007/07/01 06:59I never thought of God's patience as that of a Father with a child learning. Growing up, I had the same fears, so it's encouraging to hear this.
The fact that God is always patient with me, and never disappointed, is freeing, but irritating at the same time. I, and a lot of other Christians have this tendency to be masochists. We feel that if we do not have a whip on our backs, we will become out of control and drift away. But the Bible clearly teaches that law arouses sin, grace does not. I am in no way established in grace. I feel like I'm drifting myself with nothing to hold onto, but it's been only about 2 weeks since I made a decision to live by grace.
In short, to me, God's unending patience is very scary and has the potential to become annoying. Sometimes I want to ask God, "Are you sure? I don't feel any different."
It reminds of me kids, when they're angry at their parents who yell "I hate you!", but the parent softly says "Well I love you." We have this desire to make God angry at us so that we will work harder, thus making us feel better about our sinfulness. Grace hurts because it doesn't excuse sin, but will not let you punish yourself in order to change. We're desperate to make ourselves slaves, while I think God may be yelling at us that we're sons. I so much would love to make myself a slave again at times, even though I'm anxious, worried and condemned in that place. Slavery is good medication to make someone feel good alright in their level of sinfulness. We reason we're not perfect but we're damn close, which is a complete lie.
God's patience and grace ruins Christian masochism. It makes you aware of your sinfulness, but also causes you to stay in this place of trust, that God accepts me in Christ Jesus even though I can clearly see so many things in me that need to be changed. My faith has been stretched since coming to grace and my desire to know God more has sky rocketed, because I thought I understood everything before. And honestly, before grace, I didn't like God all that much, but I put on the "God is great" attitude and figured I would just have to endure it until I get to heaven. Thank God for the few people who still preach the gospel with no fine print."No man knows how bad he is until he tries very hard to be good." - C.S. Lewis
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Jaymz
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Posts: 3
Re:Let's talk about love ....Have your say - 2007/07/03 04:02The concept of the unending nature of God seems to be of particular relevance to me at this time Mr Walsh, not just in relation to His eternal patience, but as this is the prospect in hand let us examine something of the revelation of Agape's ability to withstand and endure.
I think it would be useful at this time to share a beautifully simple and yet dynamic definition of grace. John Edwards, Teen Challenge graduate defines grace as follows: Loving with one's eyes open.
I would like to suggest that there is a difference between belief and the assurity that comes through knowledge. I refer back to your example Mr Walsh of teaching your childtren to walk, and may I pose a question? Do you think that you would love your children any less if they never learned to walk at all? Of course you wouldn't! The love you have for your children is not based upon their ability to walk, no more than Jacob's love for Rachel was based upon her ability to have children. Here is the point, God knows us! He knows every hair on our heads, he knows every defect, every fault, every insecurity, everything about us no matter how twisted and perverse, and knowing us as He does, with His eyes wide open He loves us anyway. This is what is so glorious about the cross, that in full knowledge of who would accept the gospel and respond to it's call, God sent His only son to be the propitiation for the whole world. Now the Calvinist's would say that only the sin of those predestined to be saved was atoned for, but I believe that a God who is agape could not by definition act in that way! The glory of the Lord is that He is not willing that any should perish.
It seems to me that a lack of patience is indicative of a lack of assurity brought about by knowledge. God is well aware of the capacity He has given us to fulfill our potential, and well aware of our success in doing so. We live with the impediment of being bound inside linear time, God who knows the end from the beginning is not concerned with success or failure, as these are relative concepts. God is not waiting to see what the outcome is! He opperates from omnipotence, and therefore knowing the result He loves us anyway. This is truly beautiful as again the component natures of Agape, namely grace and mercy irradicate performance. Going back to the concept of losing ones patience, is not the problem that we lose patience when others fail to perform and live up to our own pre expectation of their ability, which is fueled by our belief. If we were in command of a comprehensive knowledge of their ability we could never lose patience in them because we would know their capability, is this not the reason that God came in the flesh in the person of Christ, knowing that only He Himself could meet His own righteous requirement?
The idea that God can never lose patience in with me underpins the assurity I have in what agape means! He seeks the highest and the best for me, and whatever it takes and no matter how long it takes for me to move into the manifestation of His desire, I know that He is still working according to His power which is at work within me, you see He calls us to believe. Now in relation to the statements I have made concerning belief next to the assurity of knowledge I want you to see something very subtle, the belief we are called to have is in the One who has not the ability to fail. He will never fail, agape never fails! So when we believe we are inessence saying: "ok God, I believe in you to do it" ! This is the pinnicle of the new covenant, as the apostle defines it, "not I, but Christ in me". And when we come to that point believing and therefore allowing God to be God in us and through our lives we become what God made us to be, who Christ is, a visible representation of an invisible God. And no matter how long it takes for us to reach that point God will be patient and if we never reach it, He loves us anyway, Glory to God !!Only when I had exhausted all the possibilities did I begin to embrace the reality... Christ in you, the hope of glory. AGAPE
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Jaymz
User Fresh Boarder
Posts: 3
Re:Let's talk about love ....Have your say - 2007/07/03 04:03The concept of the unending nature of God seems to be of particular relevance to me at this time Mr Walsh, not just in relation to His eternal patience, but as this is the prospect in hand let us examine something of the revelation of Agape's ability to withstand and endure.
I think it would be useful at this time to share a beautifully simple and yet dynamic definition of grace. John Edwards, Teen Challenge graduate defines grace as follows: Loving with one's eyes open.
I would like to suggest that there is a difference between belief and the assurity that comes through knowledge. I refer back to your example Mr Walsh of teaching your childtren to walk, and may I pose a question? Do you think that you would love your children any less if they never learned to walk at all? Of course you wouldn't! The love you have for your children is not based upon their ability to walk, no more than Jacob's love for Rachel was based upon her ability to have children. Here is the point, God knows us! He knows every hair on our heads, he knows every defect, every fault, every insecurity, everything about us no matter how twisted and perverse, and knowing us as He does, with His eyes wide open He loves us anyway. This is what is so glorious about the cross, that in full knowledge of who would accept the gospel and respond to it's call, God sent His only son to be the propitiation for the whole world. Now the Calvinist's would say that only the sin of those predestined to be saved was atoned for, but I believe that a God who is agape could not by definition act in that way! The glory of the Lord is that He is not willing that any should perish.
It seems to me that a lack of patience is indicative of a lack of assurity brought about by knowledge. God is well aware of the capacity He has given us to fulfill our potential, and well aware of our success in doing so. We live with the impediment of being bound inside linear time, God who knows the end from the beginning is not concerned with success or failure, as these are relative concepts. God is not waiting to see what the outcome is! He opperates from omnipotence, and therefore knowing the result He loves us anyway. This is truly beautiful as again the component natures of Agape, namely grace and mercy irradicate performance. Going back to the concept of losing ones patience, is not the problem that we lose patience when others fail to perform and live up to our own pre expectation of their ability, which is fueled by our belief. If we were in command of a comprehensive knowledge of their ability we could never lose patience in them because we would know their capability, is this not the reason that God came in the flesh in the person of Christ, knowing that only He Himself could meet His own righteous requirement?
The idea that God can never lose patience in with me underpins the assurity I have in what agape means! He seeks the highest and the best for me, and whatever it takes and no matter how long it takes for me to move into the manifestation of His desire, I know that He is still working according to His power which is at work within me, you see He calls us to believe. Now in relation to the statements I have made concerning belief next to the assurity of knowledge I want you to see something very subtle, the belief we are called to have is in the One who has not the ability to fail. He will never fail, agape never fails! So when we believe we are inessence saying: "ok God, I believe in you to do it" ! This is the pinnicle of the new covenant, as the apostle defines it, "not I, but Christ in me". And when we come to that point believing and therefore allowing God to be God in us and through our lives we become what God made us to be, who Christ is, a visible representation of an invisible God. And no matter how long it takes for us to reach that point God will be patient and if we never reach it, He loves us anyway, Glory to God !!Only when I had exhausted all the possibilities did I begin to embrace the reality... Christ in you, the hope of glory. AGAPE
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