[PAW] ….Your reading in if you are demanding that that means eternal damnation it most certainly does not it means DEATH the absence of LIFE [Jesus] and therefore the absence of peace. So what Paul is speaking about it’s the flesh/spirit tension which he really goes to town on in Gal 5 as you rightly say. but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
[TS] Q: So you are saying that eternal damnation is not for those who work in the flesh? But then how do you explain this in Galatians: Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. [PAW] A: Very simply, your assumption is that the forfeiture of the kingdom of God relates to the next world – In my view it does not, it relates to this world. The Kingdom of Heaven is NOW and is within you. Its operating principle is the spirit not the flesh and one simply cannot inherit the kingdom [now] in the flesh. 1 Cor 3:15 ff deals with those who live in the flesh now and explains that they will be in heaven but only as those escaping through the flames. So the issue is where and when the inheritance is effective. Pentecostal eschatology teaching what they call “now and not yet” we teach – more “now and not then.” Chapter 8 of the Bonsai Conspiracy deals with Galatians 5 in great detail. [TS] And these verses are just ONE example from many passages from the bible. Do you see that to believe in the so called "eternal security" you have to find so many explanations for several verses of the bible that a "simple" reading states the opposite? [PAW] Err no I don’t actually
[TS] Anyway, just a few questions about this Romans comment: [TS] 1) You are saying that you can serve the sin and still serve the lord? [PAW] No I am saying that you can sin [all which is not of faith is sin] and still be saved and of service to the Lord. The Lord has called us a friends not servants [Jn 15:15] we are however slaves of righteousness Roms 6 … Don’t think that Christianity is living for God – it is not it is Christ living in you! [TS] 2) Are you saying that you can have eternal life not abiding in Christ, the true vine? [PAW] Ummm, Yes and no! Yes because Christ is all and in all and in Him we live and breadth had nave our being. And No because one needs to be alive to Christ through faith in order for eternal life [the brand you mean] to be effective. [TS] 3) How can you be free by the new birth and the grace and still be slave of sin - works of the flesh (or became a slave of it)? [PAW] Who said anything about being a slave to sin? – We’re slaves to righteousness. Grace frees us from both the penalty and the power of sin. Remember that the power of sin is in the law. [1 Cor 15] [PAW quote] • 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, [THAT IS YOU AND I] these are sons of God.
[TS] I feel like some things are missing in, so please answer me this question for me to understand this part better:
[TS] Q: 1) Do you believe someone can have faith in Jesus, receive the grace, and not allow being led by the Spirit? Or is it automatic, after faith I will always be led by the Spirit, even if I murder someone for example. [PAW] A: You’re confusing identity and behaviour. Anyone can behave in a way that is inconsistent with who he is. Incidentally nobody is going to hell because they murdered somebody[s] anymore than someone is going to heaven because they didn’t. ALL our sins past, present and future have been forgiven. People go to hell because of UNBELIEF not because of behaviour. [Jn 16:9]
[TS] Q: “15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"” How do you explain this: Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. [PAW] A: The Romans quote is interesting since it tells us specifically that we have not be bound over to fear – which I say is the outworking of ALL religion. Now with respect to the Hebrews quote – you are now arguing my case for me.
The word “chastisement” favoured by the KJV [and only the KJV most modern translators prefer the word discipline]
NSAB12:8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
NIV 12:8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true son Anyway, that aside, the word “chastisement” which in popular English carries the connotation of PUNISHMENT which is fine as long as you understand that the goal of “punishment” is restoration, which sadly, most people do not. For most people the word conjures up something far more sinister. Consequently, in modern usage the word in this context is as inappropriate as calling someone a “bastard” – [and speaking as an illegitimate child I do find the term highly offensive] Chastisement: “The whole training and education of children (which relates to the cultivation of mind and morals, and employs for this purpose now commands and admonitions, now reproof and punishment) It also includes the training and care of the body” Here’s the way I see it: Law & Punishment go together as do Grace & Discipline in epilen and [TS] Dear Pastor, Fernando said he will lend me 2 books, and I will do my best to read them all.
[PAW] Good that will save me some money if you don’t find them useful
Post edited by: Paul, at: 2007/01/10 17:11Paul Anderosn-Walsh
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Thiago Souza
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Re:Paul's Replies to Thiago's Questions - 2007/01/10 18:38A: Very simply, your assumption is that the forfeiture of the kingdom of God relates to the next world – In my view it does not, it relates to this world. The Kingdom of Heaven is NOW and is within you. Its operating principle is the spirit not the flesh and one simply cannot inherit the kingdom [now] in the flesh. 1 Cor 3:15 ff deals with those who live in the flesh now and explains that they will be in heaven but only as those escaping through the flames. So the issue is where and when the inheritance is effective. Pentecostal eschatology teaching what they call “now and not yet” we teach – more “now and not then.” Chapter 8 of the Bonsai Conspiracy deals with Galatians 5 in great detail.
Pr Paul I don't disagree with you, the kingdon of God starts here and we are living on it right now.
About the verse of Corintians it's very interesting indeed, but just check the context:
1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
See the condition? Only if you build over the fundation wich is the lordhood of Christ (Christ beeing your lord - rom. 6:16)
So the condition of rom 6:16 is still there! You cannot serve sin and the Lord. Now, Paul says in Corintians 3, that if you are serving the lord, not siining willfully (like hebrews 10:26 says) and your works are all dead they will be burnt by fire and only the ones that remain will receive a reward.
Indeed you will be saved! But only if your fundation is laid on the lordhood of Christ, you cannot serve 2 lords.
(UPDATED) Now I think the idea of confessing Christ can really fits here! The foundation is the lordhood, and the ocnfession are not mere words.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[PAW] No I am saying that you can sin [all which is not of faith is sin] and still be saved and of service to the Lord. The Lord has called us a friends not servants [Jn 15:15] we are however slaves of righteousness Roms 6 … Don’t think that Christianity is living for God – it is not it is Christ living in you!
But if you are secure it would not matter, you will still inherit the kingdon of God. You can be a hitler or a Bin Laden and mass murder milions and still go to heaven (of course by grace you can be forgiven, but if you are still willingly sinning no like hebrews 10:26-29 no you can't)
PAW] Ummm, Yes and no! Yes because Christ is all and in all and in Him we live and breadth had nave our being. And No because one needs to be alive to Christ through faith in order for eternal life [the brand you mean] to be effective.
Ok, so we have to be alive like romans 6 says, wich I totally agree. So what about the fruit?
Can you be alive without producing ANY fruit at all?
[PAW] Who said anything about being a slave to sin? – We’re slaves to righteousness. Grace frees us from both the penalty and the power of sin. Remember that the power of sin is in the law. [1 Cor 15] [PAW quote] • 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, [THAT IS YOU AND I] these are sons of God.
It was just a generic question (rethorical one). The verse of corintians is very interesting.
We are slaves of rightouness, that's why we can't be slaves of sin, or put ourselfs into the position of serving sin, like romans 6:16 says.
PAW] A: You’re confusing identity and behaviour. Anyone can behave in a way that is inconsistent with who he is. Incidentally nobody is going to hell because they murdered somebody[s] anymore than someone is going to heaven because they didn’t. ALL our sins past, present and future have been forgiven. People go to hell because of UNBELIEF not because of behaviour. [Jn 16:9]
Yes nobody will go to hell by just making one murder, but living in homicide yes. How can you have Christ indentity and still live in death continuosly? (the present continuous of galatians 5:21b)
So you can believe and still continue sinning? you murdered before,and you still keep murdering? You were a serial rapist, and now after the faith you keep raping womans, cause your faith saved you and you actions does not matter.
one verse from Jesus is very interesting:
Jhn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
“The whole training and education of children (which relates to the cultivation of mind and morals, and employs for this purpose now commands and admonitions, now reproof and punishment) It also includes the training and care of the body”
Question: Have you ever seen a father educating a children and calling it a ilegitimate son?
What's the juridical consequence of not being legitimate? Do you loose your inheritance? I think so and that's the point of the text in my view.
In the grace of the Lord,
Thiago
Post edited by: Thiago Souza, at: 2007/01/10 18:42
Post edited by: Thiago Souza, at: 2007/01/10 18:43
Post edited by: Thiago Souza, at: 2007/01/10 18:45
Post edited by: Thiago Souza, at: 2007/01/10 20:18
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Replies to Thiago [TS] from Paul Anderson-Walsh[PAW] 
The verse of corintians is very interesting.
