Thank you for indulging me in my little diagnostic exercise. It is one that I find really helpful. Your answer has really helped me understand the reason for our differing perspectives. Okay, in respect of my question “What is a Christian?” you offer the following as your definition:
"Christian, from the Greek Christianos, was originally a term used by unbelievers to describe the followers of Jesus Christ as slaves (i.e. the suffix ianos was popularly used to specify the slaves of the one whose name with which it was compounded i.e. Christianos meant slaves of Christ)"
I first started asking this question to Church leaders when I was discussing the nature and purpose of the church with them. Why? Well because it is impossible to separate our beliefs about “church” from our understanding about the essence of what it is to be a Christian. If an ecclesia is a gathering of Christians, what then, we must know what it is to be a Christian?
The answers that I typically got were very similar to your answer. However, the question as you may have discovered in replying is not as obvious as one might imagine. Yet, we must always start from there. That must be our fixed premise and all else of which we do is but an expression of that understanding. So, let me preface my answer to the question, “What is a Christian?”, by saying that your answer colours just about everything that you say, do and think and not only about “church” and church but also, more than that, about your entire Christian experience. When this question is posed people typically respond by answering in terms of things that Christians do or are not supposed to do, defining believers in terms of behaviour instead of identity.
It has been my experience that many people (Christians not excepted) define themselves in terms of what they do as opposed to who they are. This is not surprising when we think of our social language. Think back to the last time when you met somebody new in a social setting, for example, a wedding or a party. What do you say after you have said, “Hello”? How long is it before you say, “And what do you do?”? Perhaps of even more importance, how did their answer influence the rest of the interaction?
My question to the aforementioned leaders and teachers was designed to tease out a deeper truth that Freud depicted well with his “Identity Iceberg”. He saw that, just like an iceberg, much of who we are is submerged below the surface. All we see is the behavioural outcomes – the surface you, i.e. what you do and how you behave. However, beneath the surface is your value system, your beliefs and your identity and these undisclosed things are the real you. As I have mentioned, it is not what you do which defines who you are but who you are which defines what you do.
In our new paradigm, a Christian is a container or conduit of Christ. The key metaphors employed by the New Testament seem to support our definition in that Jesus Himself calls us His “branches” [John 15:5]. The Apostle Paul describes us as “jars” [2 Cor. 4:7] and “temples” [1 Cor. 3:16]. What does each of these things do? They are created to contain something. Here, then, is our starting point – a Christian is a container of Christ. The New Testament describes this condition as being “in Christ.”
The implications of the above statement might not be immediately apparent but when we see that a spirit needs a body to manifest itself, we stand on the threshold of revelation, i.e. God, who is Spirit, manifests Himself through Man who is flesh.
In other words, we are the earthen vessels in which He has placed a treasure and that treasure is the indwelling Spirit of God. God is Spirit [John 4:24]. As such, He makes Himself known through His creation, the pinnacle of which is Man. It is through Man that God manifests His nature which is described by the Apostle John in one word – “love” [1 John 4:16]. God is love.
Therefore, in the same way that trees bear fruit through their branches, Christ in us bears His fruit [Gal. 5:22-23] through His “branches”, i.e. His body which is the church. This is so that Jesus is able to say, “By this all people will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another” [John 13:35]. This is Agapē Love which the Apostle Paul defines for us in the famous Love Chapter of 1 Corinthians 13 in the Bible.
Love is the fruit which we bear and in so doing, the church, like the vine, expresses its inner life and its hidden resources through its branches. Moreover, the analogy does not end there but extends itself to the fact that branches do not produce fruit – they bear fruit by virtue of abiding in the vine. Moreover, they bear fruit not for themselves but for the benefit of others.
Now then this is what gives rise to my second question Professing Christ is a to speak about Him – to confess Him if you will a la your Roms 10:9 text. However to possess Christ or to be POSSESSED by Christ takes us into another realm. Just think about all that you have been taught about DEMON possession then translate that to DIVINE POSSSESSION and you’ve got our message in the bag. Wonderful isn’t it to be possessed by God. That is the difference between having Christ in your life and Christ being your life.Paul Anderosn-Walsh
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About your first post, i think i can agree wqith you in almost everything you said, and that´s why i think we are not far from each other.
But I have to apologize because i still did not understand what do you mean by being possed by Christ. If you could give a biblical reference that would imply that it might be easier for me to understand.
Now about, the second post and the romans 8 controversy, I took a fast look in some versions and they say it is not a translation problem, but there are manuscripts that state exactly that. So it "might" be there or not like the KJV translates.
Well, if it was only one verse I would agree with you and then a shadow would have been cast over my arguments, but the key point of the romans text is in another verse with seems that there are no controversy:
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
I checked several versions and they all say the same! So the idea of the verse 1 is corroborated by all the other verses, and not just these ones, but several parts of hebrews and the book of romans too. (and the verses of John 15 that I quoted previously).
So I think the point of the word "death" from romans and the book of James "death" have a instrinsecly correlation, and this small divergence betwen the original manuscripts (not translations) does not afect that, cause the key verse is not rom 8:1.
About the galatians position I will try to take a look, I have already listened to some sermons and some articles.
Now about the John 15 passage, I might be understanding wrong (and I apologize if I do so), but are you preaching that all roads take you to rome? (like you quoted in the begining?). Cause that would sound really strange for me.
Now If you say that in the Bible there are two different Gods that is even more strange. I think that God can´t change, he may change his covenant (The way to deal with men), but his character does not change, or he would not be perfect.
Ok I read some texts, and here´s some questions about it:
. Sin is not something that people do or don't do. It is something that people are or are not. The Christian is indwelt by Christ and has been freed from sin.
Pr Paul could you give me any reference from the bible that states that?
In my view we are defined as not sinners any more, but this does not means that we can´t sin anymore. You may not be a cook anymore, but this does not mean that you may eventually cook a dinner.
Paul has no concept of a person receiving the Gospel without embracing others and this is fully displayed in the final section of Galatians.
I am understanding wrong or do we agree that Faith without Love is Neckros (death)????
Although Paul's paragraph culminates in the warning that "those who do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God" [5:21b], this, in the author's opinion, does not encourage the anti-security view. Paul writes in the present continuous tense which means that it is unlikely that he is giving a description of the believer.
Why it cannot be aplayeble top the believers? My english might be not perfect, but i don´t understand the point of present continuous beeing rendering it impossible to be aplayeble to the believer (Specially because there are several verses corroborating this same very assertion)
Certainly, "the Christian position is one of invincible assurance of salvation combined with awesome warnings concerning forfeiture of blessing (but not salvation itself)" . The fact that the New Testament is a mixture of great assurance plus earnest warnings has resulted in some dubious conclusions.
If it is so, why there are so many warnings about beeing vigilants for the time the Lord comes to take his church again?
Well after reading your text about the Possession I think Iunderstood your concept, altough I strongly disagree to it. You mentioned:
So then we move from simply “Professing Christ” to being POSSESSED by Christ and that catapults us into another realm. Just think about all that you have been taught about DEMON possession then translate that to DIVINE POSSSESSION and you’ve got our message in the bag.
By any means we can translate the demonic possession to Christ´s possession! They have no paralel and the texts you mentioned does not supoport that view.
The demons when they posses someone they take control against the persons will, or at least without their full knowledge of it.
God in no way does that to us! If he did so, he would remove free will! And then even worst He whould be choosing who He would be condemning/it would not be a personal choice anymore. Or worst he whould be deniing FAITH itself! Because if he takes out control of someone against their will, they whould not need faith at all.
We would become robots of God!!! (I am really not a robot!)
In the grace of Christ,
Thiago
Post edited by: Thiago Souza, at: 2007/01/09 22:49
Post edited by: Thiago Souza, at: 2007/01/09 22:57
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