Firstly my apologies for my overly elaborate English – I ought to make allowances for the fact that its not your first language. You do very well to not only follow my arguments but to make your own in English. One of the irresistible temptations for English writers is to play with our language so we like using terms like “profession and possession” it gives the writer rhythm, not quite samba I accept but rhythm nonetheless. It is to my great relief that both Pico and Jorge Camago are linguistic geniuses. For I rely entirely on Pico to translate what I say and Jorge to translate what I write into your lovely language. So here we go then to be possessed it to be owned. Have a look at the blogg “An obsession with possession” and you’ll get the idea.
I am afraid that we’ll have to agree to disagree on Romans 8 I am afraid. That ones not negotiable and with respect I think that the authorities are on my side one. And that is why I used the expression all roads lead to Rome[ans 8] that’s me playing with our language again – we have an expression that says “All roads lead to Rome” which I borrowed to make the point that sooner or later everything roots back to Roms 8:1 there is no condemnation….
Have a read through the New American Standard – its not my text of choice but its relaibel and you do have it in Brasil… 1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Okay we’re back to the Profession/Possession argument. Let me try this one on you. The relationship that the believer has with the Lord is a bit like the moon has with the sun. Eh science what next ?? here’s the thing – the moon has no light of its own its like is drawn from the sun. Okay in the same way in Genesis the Grater Light [The Sun] is a type of The SON – Jesus and the moon, the lesser light is a type of the church – so we too radiate HIS light. Consequently when The apostle Paul says: 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit He meant the Son’s obedience dispelled our darkness and not only dispelled it but replaced it with His light. That is the light is evidenced by those who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, [your reading in if you are demanding that that means eternal damnation it most certainly does not it means DEATH the absence of LIFE [Jesus] and therefore the absence of peace. So what Paul is speaking about it’s the flesh/spirit tension which he really goes to town on in Gal 5 as you rightly say. but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. NEON LIGHTS FLASHING MOMENT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him., I don’t have the time right now to comment in full on this text – I wish that I did and will write an article about it at my earliest opportunity but surely my friend Romans 8:9 -16 speak for itself and requires no commentary from me to show you that on this point I am right and can say that without hesitation or fear of contradiction – THERE IS NO CONDEMNATION, Period. How can you be so sure you say: • 9 You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
• 10 If [and we may say SINCE] Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
• 11 But if [and he has so we may again say SINCE] the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
• 12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; [HOLD ON LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP – THIS IS PAUL COMING BACKK THRO THE DOOR OF GAL 2:20 DEATH TO SELF IS THE KEY REMEMBER “No longer I”] but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [NOPT I BUT CHRIST]
• 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, [THAT IS YOU AND I] these are sons of God.
• 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
• 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
• 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if [SINCE] indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. In respect to your other queries about sin etc you need to get yourself copies of the books in Brazilian Portuguese and here goes I’ll make you a money back guarantee. If you don’t find them useful I’ll refund the money. Just contact either Pico [Phillip Sommer] or Fernando online and they will arrange for you to get the books. All the questions your asking are treated in the two books. Let’s keep talking though. I am sure God’s in the midst.
Yours and His PaulPaul Anderosn-Walsh
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Thiago Souza
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Posts: 24
Re:All Roads Lead to Rome[ans8] - 2007/01/10 01:34First thanks for your patience with me, indeed my english is good, but not perfect.
I will try to make a short post to make things easier for you .
your reading in if you are demanding that that means eternal damnation it most certainly does not it means DEATH the absence of LIFE [Jesus] and therefore the absence of peace. So what Paul is speaking about it’s the flesh/spirit tension which he really goes to town on in Gal 5 as you rightly say. but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
So you are saying tha eternal damnation is not for those who work in the flesh? But then how do you explain this in galatians:
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
And these verses are just ONE example from many passages from the bible. Do you see that to believe in the so called "eternal security" you have to find sooo many explanations for several verses of the bible that a "simple" reading states the oposite?
Anyway, just a few questions about this romans coment:
1) You are saying that you can serve the sin and still serve the lord?
2) Are you saying that you can have eternal life not abiding in Christ, the true vine?
3) How can you be free by the new birth and the grace and still be slave of sin - works of the flesh (or became a slave of it)?
• 10 If [and we may say SINCE] Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
If you put since doesn´t it change the meaning of the text? cause in greek the "IF" is "ei" + "per" and "ei" is in one greek lexicon:
A primary particle of conditionality; if, whether, that, etc.
• 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, [THAT IS YOU AND I] these are sons of God.
I feel like some things are missing in, so please answer me this question for me to understand this part better:
1) Do you believe someone can have faith in Jesus, receive the grace, and not allow being led by the Spirit? Or is it automatic, after faith I will always be led by the Spirit, even if I murder someone for example.
• 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
How do you explain this:
Hbr 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Dear Pastor, Fernando said he will lend me 2 books, and I will do my best to read them all.
Post edited by: Thiago Souza, at: 2007/01/10 01:35
Post edited by: Thiago Souza, at: 2007/01/10 01:40
Post edited by: Thiago Souza, at: 2007/01/10 01:43
Post edited by: Thiago Souza, at: 2007/01/10 01:45
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