Why did Jesus Come For? - 2007/01/10 02:44Thiago, I can surely understand your frustration towards people who believe in eternal security.
First of all we, from TGP teach and believe this subject for we know that the law could not perfect anyone. This we see clearly in many verses (take for example Hb 10:1) that as the law did not help us to become any better, it just set the standard of God who is perfect and this standard was fulfilled once and for all in Jesus who now lives in me (see Gal 2:20 – refers to being possessed by Christ btw).
Okay to argue now that someone once being in Christ (II Cor 5:17) is not completely secure makes us think that there is something we can do that would make us lose this security we gained not by ourselves, but by Christ alone.
“Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
I believe this verse (like all the others you may site) does not reflect the reality of salvation. See “they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God”… Do we really believe that Kingdom of God = Heaven?? If we do, then I must say we are all doomed. We believe that the Kingdom of God is not a place we are going to when we die (or do you understand it like that??); we believe that the Kingdom of God starts when Christ takes out our old life and exchanges it for new. It is within, not without.
Like PAW said we see these verses not as an assertion of: “you better not, else…” but we see it like “you will not, because…” and I can hardly believe that if the apostle Paul was referring himself to salvation, it would stand as a complete contrary to what we believe the book of Galatians (the freedom/security letter) to be. How can he start (Gal 2:16) the book affirming that we are justified by grace through faith and conclude his thoughts with conditional statements? To me, it does not make any sense.
To elude this I would fairly ask you these questions: Do you believe that a Christian can lose his secure position? If he does, how? By sinning? By fulfilling the works of the flesh (don’t we all sometimes??) Is there any Christian who can say he hasn’t fulfilled any of those? Wouldn’t we all be not inheriting the Kingdom of God? Is there any other way?
If we had the law, why did Jesus come for? Is there any part of us in the plan of salvation? Is yes, what part?
PEACE!
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Thiago Souza
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Posts: 24
Re:Why did Jesus Come For? - 2007/01/10 17:52Do you believe that a Christian can lose his secure position?
Yes he can.
I don't like to give examples to make points, but I think this is a good one: My friend if someone do not loose salvation you would be justifying Horrible behaviours (like some churchs in Sao Paulo are doing right now). You could say that Hitler if he had faith once when he was a teenager, and then became the monster later on, even after comiting willlingly that human carnage we would find him in heaven. (I am not saying that God could not forgive him, sure he could by grace, but he cannot be sinning willfully and still go to heaven)
Well I think what fundaments this is a statement of Jesus:
Jhn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
You can't be free by the death of Christ and still be bounded to sin, these ideas oppose each other. You can't serve two lords like Paul says in rom 6:16.
If he does, how? By sinning? By fulfilling the works of the flesh (don’t we all sometimes??)
Yes we do it. But the point that Jesus and the Ap Paul (and James, why not?) says is that if we do not produce any fruits at all (wich oposes the flesh works) we are them doomed.
Of course we are in a process, but God demands you the bare minimum, wich is to run the good race, fight the combat and keep faith....
Just look at the parabole of Jesus and why the person was condemned to Hell (about the talents):
Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine. Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents. Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
What is the gift/talent that Jesus gave? What is order about "give to exchangers"? And the last verse what does it mean?
Jesus is saying about the grace and what he demanded is to do the bare minimum by giving to the exchangers, and if we just bury it we will be condemned to the darkness and a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. (if you do not believe it is hell just read the 2 previous paraboles and the last verses of chap 25 - and by the way this is about the church being vigilant for the end of days)
Is there any Christian who can say he hasn’t fulfilled any of those? Wouldn’t we all be not inheriting the Kingdom of God? Is there any other way?
You will only not inherit the kingdon of God if you keep sinning willfully. Like hebrews 10:26 says, or you not abide in Christ like John chap 15 says, or you are only being led by flesh in roman 8, or serving sin in romans 6:16, or not producing fruits like James 2:26 and galatians 5:21, and not doing the bare minimal like Matew 25 (and many more verses but i think these are enough).
The kingdon of God is not only heaven, I don't disagree that it starts here on earth.
If we had the law, why did Jesus come for? Is there any part of us in the plan of salvation? Is yes, what part?
He came to fullfil the law, wich is what romans and John in his gospel says. Now we no longer have the Mosaic law, but the Law of faith (law of the spirit, or law of love)
I think the answer to your question is in romans 8, wich I explained in another post.
Well Thiago at your last reply do said: "You could say that Hitler if he had faith once when he was a teenager, and then became the monster later on, even after comiting willlingly that human carnage we would find him in heaven. (I am not saying that God could not forgive him, sure he could by grace, but he cannot be sinning willfully and still go to heaven)"
So, based on your point, a Christian guy who does a lot of bad things (sin) can loose his ticket to heaven = loose the salvation, ok?
You agree with Phillip (Pico) when he said that the kingdom of heaven is not just salvation (Because is more than at). To confess Jesus (by heart) as savior and lord you gonna receive more than salvation but you gonna receive de kingdom of heaven inside you thru the holly ghost, ok?
Well, here start my point...
Let’s say that a guy confess Jesus (by heart) as his savior and lord. Oh...at this moment, like you and Phillip said, this guy received more than just salvation...He actually received the kingdom of heaven inside him, thru holly ghost.
But this guy start to do a lot bad things (sin) and, based on your point of view, he annulled or destroyed the kingdom of heaven that was built inside him. But wait...This guy ask for forgiveness (truly) and the kingdom of heaven is rebuilt inside him again...Passed 2 weeks he start to do bad things (worse than before) again...What happens? Oh...No.. the kingdom of heaven was annulled again...After 3 weeks the guy as for forgiveness again (truly)...Oh Alleluia...The kingdom of heaven was rebuilt "again"...And this religious situation never ends.
If you really believe that the person can annul or cancel the kingdom of heaven that was built inside it thru sin, answer me something (I WANNA THE ANSWER OF YOUR HEART, SO PLEASE DON`T COPY AND PASTE BIBLE TEXTS...I HAVE MY BIBLE).
The holly and perfect sacrifice that allow us to confess Jesus as our savior and lord and allow us to receive the kingdom of heaven inside us (including salvation) wasn’t strong enough that can be annul by sin???
If our behavior (works) it is important to preserve our salvation…We still at the same position of Old Testament…What is the difference???? Why Jesus work was important???
In his grip
Fernando
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Well Thiago at your last reply do said: "You could say that Hitler if he had faith once when he was a teenager, and then became the monster later on, even after comiting willlingly that human carnage we would find him in heaven. (I am not saying that God could not forgive him, sure he could by grace, but he cannot be sinning willfully and still go to heaven)"
So, based on your point, a Christian guy who does a lot of bad things (sin) can loose his ticket to heaven = loose the salvation, ok?
You agree with Phillip (Pico) when he said that the kingdom of heaven is not just salvation (Because is more than at). To confess Jesus (by heart) as savior and lord you gonna receive more than salvation but you gonna receive de kingdom of heaven inside you thru the holly ghost, ok?
Well, here start my point...
Let’s say that a guy confess Jesus (by heart) as his savior and lord. Oh...at this moment, like you and Phillip said, this guy received more than just salvation...He actually received the kingdom of heaven inside him, thru holly ghost.
But this guy start to do a lot bad things (sin) and, based on your point of view, he annulled or destroyed the kingdom of heaven that was built inside him. But wait...This guy ask for forgiveness (truly) and the kingdom of heaven is rebuilt inside him again...Passed 2 weeks he start to do bad things (worse than before) again...What happens? Oh...No.. the kingdom of heaven was annulled again...After 3 weeks the guy as for forgiveness again (truly)...Oh Alleluia...The kingdom of heaven was rebuilt "again"...And this religious situation never ends.
If you really believe that the person can annul or cancel the kingdom of heaven that was built inside it thru sin, answer me something (I WANNA THE ANSWER OF YOUR HEART, SO PLEASE DON`T COPY AND PASTE BIBLE TEXTS...I HAVE MY BIBLE).
The holly and perfect sacrifice that allow us to confess Jesus as our savior and lord and allow us to receive the kingdom of heaven inside us (including salvation) wasn’t strong enough that can be annul by sin???
If our behavior (works) it is important to preserve our salvation…We still at the same position of Old Testament…What is the difference???? Why Jesus work was important???
In his grip
Fernando
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Thanks for joining in the debate with Philip. Well I will try to post an answer for your question, BUT I will have to use the bible for it. (Sorry, but I can't fundament a doctrine without having biblical support for it... I can't just post a conjecture...)
So your main question was:
The holly and perfect sacrifice that allow us to confess Jesus as our savior and lord and allow us to receive the kingdom of heaven inside us (including salvation) wasn’t strong enough that can be annul by sin???
It's not exaclty what you are saying, of course the grace of Jesus trough his sacrifice is enough for any sin, BUT if you keep sinning willfully, not repenting from your sins, then the sacrifice of Jesus will not remain for you (ie. hebrews 10:26-29).
In order to explain that idea I need to explain something first, wich is the batism of John Baptist and repentance from sin.
We have the awfull tradition from the romanistic church that repentance is a feeling, so you sin and then you feel sad (guilty or condemned) for doing it and just ask God to forgive you, and keep having the same life you had previously. That's not exactly what the bible means about repentance.
Well, repentance may come along with a feeling, but itself is not a feeling (of guilty, sadnees, condmnation...), but it is a decision of changing the direction of your life, or the way you were dealing with something, let's see one parabole of Jesus in Mathew:
Mat 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? Mat 21:26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. Mat 21:27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things. Mat 21:28 ¶ But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. Mat 21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. Mat 21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not. Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it], repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
This parabole is quite interesting and Jesus is clearly trying to show to the elders of the temple about how to enter in the kingdon of God, and how they did not believe and repented, when John preached to them.
As we can see trough this passage, the son that fullfilled the father's will was the one that repented and changed his way. The son was no going and then went. So repentance is not a feeling, the parabole does not say anything about he feeling sad or anything, just that he changed.
In another verse that I quoted, Jesus reveals that idea to the woman that commited adultery:
Jhn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
JEsus did not condem her, but he ordered, go and sin no more, wich is clearly the same idea of repentance from the preachings of John Baptist.
Well let me post another passage about John Baptist:
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. ..... Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
John Baptist was preparing the way of the Lord preaching that they must have repented from their sins, and confess it and bring "fruits of repentance".
Now I think that we can easily travel to John chapter 15 and undertasnd why if you do not bear any fruit at all you will be cuted from the wine, and why you can't sin willfully like hebrews 10:26, and why you can't serve 2 lords from romans 6:16, and why you can't live in sin like Galatians 5:21b says, and why you will not inherit the kingdon if you live by flesh like romans 8:6, and why your works will be burned but you will be saved IF you edify in the foundation wich is lordhood of Christ from 1 corintians 3, wich means repenting from your sinfull path and Confessing Jesus as your Lord in fomans 10:8-9.
Just a few more verses that clear states ideas from repentance, wich is associated with faith: luk 5:32, luk 15:7, luk 24:47, acts 5:31 acts 11:18, 20:21, acts 26:20, II cor 7:10.
So dear Fernando, the point about eternal security is that you have it as long as you repented from your sinnfull way, wich is beeing secure in the foundation wich is the lordhood of Christ, and being led by the spirit, and you will naturally produce fruits (Cause it is impossible for you to be ressurect with Christ and do not produce ANY fruit at all).
So it does not mean that if you sin you will go to hell (or just leave the kningdon here on earth), nor it is related to the quantity of sins you make, but about sinning willfully and deciding to do not repent from living after the flesh (sin), because then you will be edificating you life not in the true vine or the rock, so you are rejecting the Gospel and Jesus itself and his sacrifice.
I hope this explanation made my idea finally clear that it's not sin that condem you but not repenting.
Well I would like to finish this post with the words of the Ap Paul in the book of Romans:
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
selah! (pause for meditation)
In the peace and joy of Crhist,,
Thiago
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paul franklin
Admin Admin
Posts: 4
Re:Why did Jesus Come For? - 2007/01/16 17:04Hi Thiago Souza, love the debate but surly everyone has a right to their view! From my position I find some of your conclusion inconsistent however I welcome your opinion as I hope you do?
I want to listen to you and grow together in understanding, but could your statement about Fernando not having biblical support be a commentary that you are not listening to him? I personally found his input helpful!
Of course we can disagree but we must do it in the spirit of grace, so that we do not rubbish anyone’s views.
I have come to see that our problem in the church is not what we do not know about Christ, but what we think we know about Christ..! For if our lenses of interruption is of then our conclusion will be incorrect.
Ultimately, it is the helper the Holy Spirit that is the source of all truth and revelation this can be found when we look at creation, when we listen to a child and not exclusively in the bible.
For did not the Jewish leaders who were perceived to know the scriptures miss the truth (Christ) that was in front of them? For the letter kills but the spirit gives life!
Maybe we should start a debate that?
Please don’t hear me being personal but this should be a space where others can be free to voice their opinions. Of course we can disagree with another’s contribution we must be do it in the spirit of grace.
bless ya
Paul F
Post edited by: Paul Franklin, at: 2007/01/16 17:34
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Mandy
From my position I find some of your conclusion inconsistent however I welcome your opinion as I hope you do? 
