A Reply to Thiago [The Twin Towers] - 2007/01/18 01:08Dear Thiago, My apologies for the silence, I have been somewhat pre-occupied this last week and so have not had the opportunity to respond sooner. I note that the debate continues through other members and I am delighted about that. Well now I am glad that we were able to find some basis of agreement in respect of the “kingdom now” position but I do think that you’re clutching at legalistic straws in your interpretation of 1 Cor 3:12 really I do. You refer me to “the condition?” and impose the idea “That the foundation is the Lordship of Christ.” This you then rather curiously linked to Roms 6:16 & Hebs 10:26 [Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?] Oh Thiago, just as an aside, I am not sure that your carpet bombing approach to proof texting works in your favour. I think that it weakens your argument rather than support it. …but that’s just me] In this case I simply don’t understand the link between the cluster of verses especially as the Romans one has been dragged kicking and screaming out of its context. I mean pick the text up from say verse 14 which incidentally is a long way into Paul’s argument, which actually begun in 5:12 but never mind you’ll see my point I am sure: 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that you, having once been slaves of sin, have become obedient from the heart to the form of teaching to which you were entrusted, 18 and that you, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness for sanctification. 20 When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 So what advantage did you then get from the things of which you now are ashamed? The end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Anyway returning to 1 Cor, you are reading in to the text something that is conspicuous by its absence. Follow the text and then tell me where you see even the hint of the suggestion of Lordship? 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14 If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire. Now what do we have here? • The foundation has been laid • That foundation is Christ – Christ alone with noting up his sleeve. There is no requirement on us to pony up some good works – no Lordship nothing. • The foundation is Christ and that foundation has been laid. Period. • So says the apostle – if you’re going to build on the foundation – then my advice it to do it right because you can be sure The Day will expose it [not the man form the planning dept or the surveyor [aka Pastor] no THE DAY will expose it. Now it seems to me that Paul is not thinking here about “unrighteous works” but surely the context demands that he is thinking of “self-righteous works” Surely people who attempt to build on Christ would consider themselves Christian workers You know like those of the “I never knew you variety” The but didn’t we cast out demons in your name types. Or what about the legalist that have plagued the apostles missionary endeavours with the putrefying gospel of St Shawshank’s “You should do this” and “you should do that.” Or the other lot that insist on putting people under the law of tithing or the law of church–attendance etc and all in the name of God by the way. Could it be that these are the folks that Paul has in his sights? But lets suppose he is thinking about the “backslidden” as the rather hateful expression goes okay. Let’s go for broke and go for the Homosexuals the murderers etc … Well what’s in store for that lot then? Well says the apostle their work will be burnt to the ground but they will be saved as ones escaping though the flames. Why will they be saved? The answer is obvious – because the foundation remains and the foundation is Christ. Last year I had the privilege of visiting Ground Zero in Manhattan. It was a really moving experience. But Thiago, do you know what stood out to me? Let me tell you – I thought there is nothing left of the Twin Towers the World Trader Center had gone, utterly destroyed. As I paid my respects to those dear folk that had lost their lives the Lord said – “No Paul not everything has gone remember – THE FOUNDATION REMAINS”. And sure enough not only did it remain but more than that what was left when the dust settled was two twisted steel RSJ’s which had formed themselves into the shape of a cross – Ah yes of course that is because the foundation is Christ and He always remains. Agape
Ps well just a few other points: • Beware of confusing salvation and lordship – don’t impose what is not there. Thiago’s Q: But if you are secure it would not matter, you will still inherit the kingdon of God. You can be a hitler or a Bin Laden and mass murder milions and still go to heaven (of course by grace you can be forgiven, but if you are still willingly sinning no like hebrews 10:26-29 no you can't) PAW’s A : To your Bin Landen point the issue with regard to whether he can get forgiven is moot HE IS FORGIVEN that’s the point. If he goes to hell it will not be because he kept on sinning it will be because he was too stupid to accept the free gift of life in Christ I think that it would serve you well to stop asking what if they sin and start asking why would they sin
Thiago’s Q: Can you be alive without producing ANY fruit at all? PAW’s A: Regarding the fruit issue – why are you so desperate to see fruit – when you read the Bonsai Conspiracy you’ll read about the palm tree and that may give you a different take on it all. Oh yes and don’t forget that we don’t produce fruit we bear it Thiago’s Q: So you can believe and still continue sinning? You murdered before, and you still keep murdering? You were a serial rapist, and now after the faith you keep raping women, because your faith saved you and you actions does not matter. PAW’s A: Well here we again with this proof of life thing. What you do does not tell me who you are – My suggestion is that your trying to deal with the FRUIT when you should be looking at the ROOT. So you see Thiago what we have here is not a behaviour problem it is a belief problem let me use this model to explain My Actions Core Behaviours: I do what do because …
My Thoughts Core Reflections: I think the things that I thing because ….
My Actions Core Behaviours: I believe the things I believePaul Anderosn-Walsh
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Thanks for your reply, I know you have been quite busy, but thanks for taking some time to reply my comments.
Now about the romans verses, I did not understand your point and why my view was weakened. I am really sorry but I did not get it..... (i read 3 times and did not understand... maybe it's my english )
In my opinion the point of the lordhood of Jesus is in the verse 11, before the 12 you mentioned as the start of the idea:
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
It's quite interesting because in this verse he says Jesus is our Lord and then he folows preaching about how we cannot serve another Lord (sin) and ends saying that Jesus is our lord (v 6:23). So for me the lordhood of Christ seems quite evident in the text, and the contrast that the Ap Paul preachs about the 2 lords (sin or Jesus) also seems evident. But that might be my view, cause I am used to that and maybe other readers may look at it in a diferent aproach.
So it leaves me a question: what do you think about the verse 11? How do you read it? Whatdo you understand about the lordhood of Jesus?
Now about the corintians comment, you asked:
Follow the text and then tell me where you see even the hint of the suggestion of Lordship?
Well I totally agree to you that their works will be burnt cause their fundation is laid, no matter how bad they are. But the key is: where are you building your works? In wich foundation? Are you building it in the Lord Jesus or in another Lord?
Just remembering this Lord idea for us (maybe for the english people even more) seems like a noble title, wich in the time of the apostles was quite something more.
It had to do with slavery like Paul says in romans 6, it's a Lord that totally comands someone life's. It was what the ceaser, the emperor of rome, was. And the romans understood that idea quite well, cause if they declared that another one was their Lord then they would been trown to lions in the floor of coloseum. (I think the romans were used to say that Ceaser is our Lord when the empreror passed in the roads...)
(a tought)Maybe that's why it's so hard for us right now to see why the lordhood of Jesus was so important to the crhistians in rome.
(PS: Jhn 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. )
I think that it would serve you well to stop asking what if they sin and start asking why would they sin
Someone under the Grace, that have faith in Jesus and his sacrifice, can become a Hitler? Or a bin Laden? So WHY they would be comiting those kinds of atrocities? Is it possible? Would they still inherit the kingdon?
Oh yes and don’t forget that we don’t produce fruit we bear it
Yes it's true, I was afraid to use the word bear cause I was not sure of the meaning, so used produce instead (cause it was the closest one I found). Sorry.
PAW’s A: Well here we again with this proof of life thing. What you do does not tell me who you are – My suggestion is that your trying to deal with the FRUIT when you should be looking at the ROOT. So you see Thiago what we have here is not a behaviour problem it is a belief problem let me use this model to explain My Actions Core Behaviours: I do what do because …
In order to have that root? What do we have to do? Don't we have to die with Chrsit trough FAITH and faith only, and the ressurect with him to obedience of rightouness?
Can we have the root without ressurecting with Christ?
What do you understand about serving 2 Lords? Can we start serving Jesus and them end serving the sin?
Another question: what do you understand about repentence?
Hope You receive it not as an atack, but in the Aghape Spirit.
From your Brother in Christ, Thiago
Post edited by: Thiago Souza, at: 2007/01/19 19:10
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