Praying in the Spirit?? - 2007/02/05 19:05Hi Kim, posted this reply as a blog Praying or Preying in the spirit…
If you’ve been following our web forums you will know that the question of “praying in the Spirit” has recently been a subject of discussion. Having followed those discussions I thought that there might be some value in opening the debate up to a wider audience. Reading the threads took me back to the brand of Christianity that I knew before I knew Jesus and made me shudder.
I often describe myself with reference to my past in Pentecostalism as being 7 years sober and in some ways that tongue-in-cheek [no pun intended] allusion to alcoholism fits rather neatly. I won’t bore you with the back-story, suffice to say that this ‘circle’ was raised in what is known as Four-Square Pentecostalism a robust evangelical environment in which truly saved spoke in tongues, heal, and busy themselves preparing planet earth for the arrival of the soon coming King which depending on whether you drunk the full or semi-skimmed version would not happen until the church has preached the Gospel to the entire world.
What disturbs me so much as I look back is that I was so dedicated to the whole depressing business, suppressing all my better instincts and only seeing the ‘facts’ that suited our paradigm. Anyway this is not meant to be a retrospective so let me stop there. The salient point being that when I left Pentecostalism I didn’t bring the household idols with me. As soon as I was able to put some distance between myself in the here and now & Pentecostalism in “the now and not yet” so to speak, I most urgently wanted to re-evaluate two things: firstly my ecclesiology [doctrine of the church – what it was and how we ‘do’ it] & secondly my pnuematology [doctrine of the Spirit]. What I discovered was that in order to reconstruct them I had first to completely deconstruct them.
I would not say that what has risen from the ashes of Pentecostalism is a fully matured view but it does feel to me that it is at least a view that is more consistent with the agape nature of God and the story of the New Testament.
One of the things that hastened my departure from Pentecostalism was the suicide of one of my former students. A gifted, but like so many who are attracted to Pentecostalism an impressionable and highly suggestible young man. We’ll call him Martin, [that was not his name], having graduated from the 1st year of the Bible College where I was the Director of Studies, Martin decided on the basis of a ‘prophecy’ that God had called him to give his life to a very remote part of the world and be their missionary. In common with just about every other person with a brain I counselled him not to go but to wait. I suggested that he attend the 2nd year in the college instead. I did not think that he was secure enough in his identity to embark on such an adventure and certainly wasn’t about to advocate that life for a newly wed. Anyway he didn’t heed my advice and left. Within a few months his wife returned to England and within a year he committed suicide. I will never forget attending that funeral. I will never forget his widow’s grief stricken face.
Now admittedly that is the most extreme example that I know. I have received and even given words of knowledge and prophecy which have proved to be edifying and confirming. However, that does not mask the fact that the particular expression that I was in vacillated between promoting a recklessness in which everyone speaks in the third Person and every sentence begins “Thus sayeth the Lord” or worse [maybe worse] is so controlled that only ‘the man of god’ can prophesy and if you want to give a word then you have to give it to the man and he will decide if it is from God or not but when he speaks he does so ex-cathedra. So what you end up with is living in a world that is either controlled or out of control. What you don’t have is any real evidence of the gift of the Spirit which is self-control; on the contrary the problem is that ‘self’ is very much in control.
Interestingly the greatest stumbling block for my wife who remained patiently aloof from the whole circus act thing was that she could never understand how tongues seemed to work on pastoral demand. So for instance we could be in a meeting and then the person leading it would say rather like a driving test examiner telling you to do an emergency break, “everybody speak in tongues” and bang there it was – this most insane ‘spirit’ language. Which she would always parody by saying “I’ll have a shandy in a rubber dinghy.” Inevitably we would be instructed that we needed to warfare or breakthrough or intercede or whatever and that we were to press-in and do battle so this insanity would be ratcheted up to fever pitch. I am sorry if this offends anybody but for the main and for the most it was nothing more than an insane babel. Depending on what type of meeting it was this could go on indefinitely. Never [or exceptionally rarely] would there be any interpretation of a tongue, [that I am sure is because not even God knew what we were saying] the chaos seemed completely at odds with the Apostle Paul’s teaching on tongues in 1 Corinthians. Invariably someone[s] normally the same ones would bring a predictable testimony about what God was going to do through this church and especially the pastor.
I don’t want to say it was nonsense but well it didn’t make a whole lot of sense that’s for sure. Needless to say when we began The Grace Project I for one was a bit sheepish about the whole issue of the charismatic and literally put it to one side for more than a year concluding that what I had experienced was more preying on that praying in the Spirit. I may have stayed a conscientious objector had it not been for some dear folk who themselves refugees from Pentecostalism found their way to The Grace Project and stayed three or four years, they more than anyone restored my faith in the possibility of a resonant charismatic practice. Although once again as we opened our hearts to these workings of the spirit our experience was very mixed and suffered from albeit fairly benign excesses, but in fairness there was also a lot of healing. Our version was a lot more elegant. Yes elegant is a good way of putting it. We saw a number of artistic people released into writing, drawing, singing, poetry – it was beautiful.
Where am I today seven years on? Well with certain caveats I am happy to admit to you that I am a cautious charismatic. I am sure that the operation of the gifts should be normative and very unremarkable but I also think that the gifts belong more in the context of community than mission.
From my study of the New Testament [which of course is highly subjective] my tentative conclusions are:
• I don’t accept the Pentecostal idea of that the baptism is subsequent to salvation. [That is entirely wrong we received everything pertaining to godliness at salvation.]
• I don’t accept the Pentecostal notion that tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Spirit. [The hallmark of God is love and more than that the bible specifically teaches that not all speak in tongues and if tongue speaking is the evidence of the spirit and you’ve no evidence how can you know you’re saved?]
• I understand the Spirit to be the agent and not the substance of baptism – the substance is and can only be Jesus.
• I do believe in the gift of tongues and all the gifts come to that but in respect tongues I think that tongues is more an intimate prayer language which I think is primarily designed to edify the person speaking in tongues which if so makes it very much the ‘lesser’ gift in the public setting where the main purpose is to edify others.
A real tongue twister ….
In a very real way Pentecostalism has a lot riding on the issue of tongues. Of course they are able to firmly anchor the gift of tongues in the New Testament. However, we need to be a little more objective in our approach to what actually happened in Acts. In the classical text – Acts 2 The Day of Pentecost it is sometimes overlooked that what happened in the Upper Room and then spilt over into the streets to the aghast onlookers does not remotely resemble what occurs today. Leaving aside the tongues of fire settling on the heads of those gathered in the Upper Room the nature of the episode was materially different from anything we see today.
You will recall that when those who were in the Upper Room spoke every one heard them in their own language. That was certainly not normative and certainly was not repeated even in the case of Cornelius’ household which many call Pentecost II. However, bizarrely there have been those outside the NT era for whom that was an entirely reasonable expectation. Witness the case of one Alfred Garr who hotfotted from Azusa St arrived in India and began preaching to the natives in what he believed to be their own languages. I seem to remember reading somewhere that even dear old Hudson Taylor went to China expecting to be given the gift of speaking Chinese.
When I read the Acts narrative it seems to me that tongues if anything were a sign to the unbeliever. Each episode seems to hint that. On one occasion the Jews disbelieve the apostles on another the Apostle Peter’s entourage can’t bring themselves to believe that the Gentiles have been accepted into the kingdom. It is not until we get to Paul’s first epistle to the Corinthians do we get a fuller orbed view of the gift of tongues. Intriguingly Paul’s gifts chapters 12 & 14 are sandwiched between his love chapter …. Which begins let me show you a more perfect way. And that seems to me to be the point. When I read the account of the Day of Pentecost I see the reversal of the curse of Babel the moment where the Lord confused the people languages so that none could understand each other. To me the Day of Pentecost reverses that by saying there is a new language – the language of indwelling agape and when we speak it to one another there is nothing that we cannot achieve.
I think that if you take the time to study the New Testament you will surprised how few references to the tongues there are. Outside the New Testament we seem to have a great period of silence [exceptions accepted] until 1901 and the birth of Pentecostalism. I have written a lengthy paper entitled Cain & Babel – Voices from the Past” which you can find on this site but suffice to say that the reflective conclusions of the fathers of the Welsh Revival seem to pertain here, namely that “much of what occurred in its intensity during the 1904-1905 Revival in Wales , should be attributed to demonic activity.”
My observation of the activity that I have witnessed in Pentecostalism accords with Jesse Penn-Lewis’ assessment of the Welsh Revival. As she put it in her most famous work War on the Saints “The Revival in Wales, which was a true work of God revealed numbers of honest souls were swept of their feet by evil supernatural powers which they were not able to discern from the true working of God.”
AgapePaul Anderosn-Walsh
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I must humbly thank you Paul for taking time out of what I can only imagine is a more than busy existence and addressing this controversial issue.
I have been through so many similar experiences in my charismatic history. It all seems like a bad dream now. The painful and utterly disastrous consequences seem now in hindsight that most if not all of those hideous results could have been avoided. Do I even spend time pondering “What If?” It is painful. I must QUIT. I need to move on. I do believe that others who have also been through this need to know they are not alone. This is basically my historical account to other wandering wounded. I now want to continue with the glorious future account so they can see there is life after charismatic chaos. For me it is God saying “Despite you and your past circumstances my sweet girl with ME all things are possible.”
I have watched loved ones, family members, and friends literally fall back into deep sin and all sins bi-products after being saved in the charismatic movement. There has been no lasting change. They have been so badly hurt and shamed and have dropped off the spiritual radar. This was back about 15 years. Our family were the shining stars of Victory Christian Fellowship. One by one we all got saved. It was like week after week there would be more and more of us showing up. I remember one service where we were all asked to stand and show just how many of us there was. It’s like we were stars. Church celebs, for lack of a better term. Some of us married in this church via the singles group. Some us had to go through physical demonic deliverance. Some of us had to be literally re-birthed in the spirit. CREEPY! I can tell you right now each and every one of our lives have been shattered since. We have experienced divorce, adultery, drug addiction, debilitating depression, abject poverty, our children born and dedicated in that church are now in gangs and addicted to all sorts of drugs, partaking in new age and false religions (Mormonism, Jehovah Witness). Death by horrible accidents. You name it we have all been affected. Horrible alcoholism. I could go on but you get the gist. Most if not all of us were water baptized. We were all baptized in the Spirit and have our own spiritual prayer languages. One of us because we were so gifted musically and made beautiful music and kicked worshipup1000 notches were allowed to be on the worship team with disguised beverage cups full of whiskey/pepsi during practice and on Sunday’s. Allowed on a worship team drunk not in the Spirit but by alcohol because it attracted new people into the church because the music was soooo anointed….NOT! It was hypocrisy at it’s finest. Innocent new believers used to benefit the church. We made them look good. I believe I have gone on when I said I would not but there is just so much.
My question is what good did praying in tongues, the prosperity gospel, positive confession, water baptism, church membership, bible college courses…ect, ect, ect do for us? What lasting effect has there been? For my mother and myself it has caused us to dig deep for truth but still finding ourselves somehow connected to that charismatic way almost bound by bits of it. It’s a fight to stay free. We have garnered a lot of truth about who we actually are “In Christ” but for the rest of this poor family of mine I see so much pain and destruction. No freedom in Christ. I want to scream at the top of my lungs to them you are OK! God still loves you! You are not bound by your sin! Let the shame fall away! We were taught WRONG. But if you are not “doing” they just won’t hear me. One huge lie that I think has a deep hold on this family is that because of some deep seeded sin you will never be worthy of God. Hidden sin. This was the answer given to anyone who did not fully line up and do as they were taught in that charismatic church. Yet they let worship team members drink alcohol while playing? What was up with that? Tithing was a big lie and caused so many to fall away because they just could not afford 10% plus offerings. It still makes me weep. So we would sacrifice and give expecting to be rewarded financially and it NEVER happened. Leaving personal debt in its wake.
I have mentioned in a previous post that my dad was killed. He was run over by his own tractor-trailer unit. The spike brake did not hold and he did something he told my brother (also a trucker) NEVER to do. If an equipment failure happens never try to save your equipment just back away (that’s why we have insurance). Well he tried to save his truck by grabbing the handle to hop into the truck and hit the brake. Well his hand slipped and he fell under the wheels. I spent hours previous to that doing what I was taught by my church. Pray over his truck. Anoint it with oil. I even put prayer clothes in his pillows. I would rebuke the devil. I did this all to keep him safe. In my eyes it did not work. Then to have my pastor tell us he was removed because he was in the way of our walk with God. Just a really bad scene. My brother had to identify his body and then to have a man of God say basically God killed his dad. Not too comforting to my brother. My brother is now addicted to crystal meth wallowing in a life of disappointments and despair. My sister is also in similar despair. I believe they both know deep down God is the only answer but the PAST pain of being attached to God leaves them less than willing to run to Him. To them God = Pain.
Enter the GRACE of God. It is only through learning about His Grace that I now have freedom. I just long for this truth to penetrate my big messed up hurting family. So please all who read this pray for my family. We can never have too much of that.
Paul, I finally have peace regarding my personal prayer language. 1 Corinthians 14 does make it clear to me now. I have this prayer language for a reason. It is of God. A blessing from the Holy Ghost.
1 Corinthians 14 1EAGERLY PURSUE and seek to acquire [this] love [make it your aim, your great quest]; and earnestly desire and cultivate the spiritual endowments (gifts), especially that you may prophesy ([a]interpret the divine will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching). 2For one who speaks in an [unknown] tongue speaks not to men but to God, for no one understands or catches his meaning, because in the [Holy] Spirit he utters secret truths and hidden things [not obvious to the understanding]. 3But [on the other hand], the one who prophesies [who [b]interprets the divine will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching] speaks to men for their upbuilding and constructive spiritual progress and encouragement and consolation. 4He who speaks in a [strange] tongue edifies and improves himself, but he who prophesies [[c]interpreting the divine will and purpose and teaching with inspiration] edifies and improves the church and promotes growth [in Christian wisdom, piety, holiness, and happiness]. 5Now I wish that you might all speak in [unknown] tongues, but more especially [I want you] to prophesy (to be inspired to preach and interpret the divine will and purpose). He who prophesies [who is inspired to preach and teach] is greater (more useful and more important) than he who speaks in [unknown] tongues, unless he should interpret [what he says], so that the church may be edified and receive good [from it]. 6Now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in [unknown] tongues, how shall I make it to your advantage unless I speak to you either in revelation (disclosure of God's will to man) in knowledge or in prophecy or in instruction? 7If even inanimate musical instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone [listening] know or understand what is played? 8And if the war bugle gives an uncertain (indistinct) call, who will prepare for battle? 9Just so it is with you; if you in the [unknown] tongue speak words that are not intelligible, how will anyone understand what you are saying? For you will be talking into empty space! 10There are, I suppose, all these many [to us unknown] tongues in the world [somewhere], and none is destitute of [its own power of] expression and meaning. 11But if I do not know the force and significance of the speech (language), I shall seem to be a foreigner to the one who speaks [to me], and the speaker who addresses [me] will seem a foreigner to me. 12So it is with yourselves; since you are so eager and ambitious to possess spiritual endowments and manifestations of the [Holy] Spirit, [concentrate on] striving to excel and to abound [in them] in ways that will build up the church. 13Therefore, the person who speaks in an [unknown] tongue should pray [for the power] to interpret and explain what he says. 14For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit [by the [d]Holy Spirit within me] prays, but my mind is unproductive [it bears no fruit and helps nobody]. 15Then what am I to do? I will pray with my spirit [by the [e]Holy Spirit that is within me], but I will also pray [intelligently] with my mind and understanding; I will sing with my spirit [by the Holy Spirit that is within me], but I will sing [intelligently] with my mind and understanding also. 16Otherwise, if you bless and render thanks with [your] spirit [[f]thoroughly aroused by the Holy Spirit], how can anyone in the position of an outsider or he who is not gifted with [interpreting of unknown] tongues, say the Amen to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? [I Chron. 16:36; Ps. 106:48.] 17To be sure, you may give thanks well (nobly), but the bystander is not edified [it does him no good]. 18I thank God that I speak in [strange] tongues (languages) more than any of you or all of you put together; 19Nevertheless, in public worship, I would rather say five words with my understanding and intelligently in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a [strange] tongue (language). 20Brethren, do not be children [immature] in your thinking; continue to be babes in [matters of] evil, but in your minds be mature [men]. 21It is written in the Law, By men of strange languages and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and not even then will they listen to Me, says the Lord.(A) 22Thus [unknown] tongues are meant for a [supernatural] sign, not for believers but for unbelievers [on the point of believing], while prophecy (inspired preaching and teaching, interpreting the divine will and purpose) is not for unbelievers [on the point of believing] but for believers. 23Therefore, if the whole church assembles and all of you speak in [unknown] tongues, and the ungifted and uninitiated or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are demented? 24But if all prophesy [giving inspired testimony and interpreting the divine will and purpose] and an unbeliever or untaught outsider comes in, he is told of his sin and reproved and convicted and convinced by all, and his defects and needs are examined (estimated, determined) and he is called to account by all, 25The secrets of his heart are laid bare; and so, falling on [his] face, he will worship God, declaring that God is among you in very truth. 26What then, brethren, is [the right course]? When you meet together, each one has a hymn, a teaching, a disclosure of special knowledge or information, an utterance in a [strange] tongue, or an interpretation of it. [But] let everything be constructive and edifying and for the good of all. 27If some speak in a [strange] tongue, let the number be limited to two or at the most three, and each one [taking his] turn, and let one interpret and explain [what is said]. 28But if there is no one to do the interpreting, let each of them keep still in church and talk to himself and to God. 29So let two or three prophets speak [those inspired to preach or teach], while the rest pay attention and weigh and discern what is said. 30But if an inspired revelation comes to another who is sitting by, then let the first one be silent. 31For in this way you can give testimony [prophesying and thus interpreting the divine will and purpose] one by one, so that all may be instructed and all may be stimulated and encouraged; 32For the spirits of the prophets (the speakers in tongues) are under the speaker's control [and subject to being silenced as may be necessary], 33For He [Who is the source of their prophesying] is not a God of confusion and disorder but of peace and order. As [is the practice] in all the churches of the saints (God's people), 34The women should keep quiet in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but should take a secondary and subordinate place, just as the Law also says.( 35But if there is anything they want to learn, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to talk in church [[g]for her to usurp and exercise authority over men in the church]. 36What! Did the word of the Lord originate with you [Corinthians], or has it reached only you? 37If anyone thinks and claims that he is a prophet [filled with and governed by the Holy Spirit of God and inspired to interpret the divine will and purpose in preaching or teaching] or has any other spiritual endowment, let him understand (recognize and acknowledge) that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. 38But if anyone disregards or does not recognize [[h]that it is a command of the Lord], he is disregarded and not recognized [he is [i]one whom God knows not]. 39So [to conclude], my brethren, earnestly desire and set your hearts on prophesying (on being inspired to preach and teach and to interpret God's will and purpose), and do not forbid or hinder speaking in [unknown] tongues. 40But all things should be done with regard to decency and propriety and in an orderly fashion.
I have to say I’m convinced in my decision to continue with my personal prayer language. As far as corporate public gift of tongues it must really be done in caution. In my former charismatic church it was done all the time. We also were summoned to pray in tongues out loud almost in a shouting tone to win a battle in the Spirit. It was as brother Paul wrote “insane babble”. I never new if we won a battle or even what the battle was we were fighting. There has been so much damage done in our churches. I think we are waking up to it. We just need the courage to step out of it and overcome it. Thank God for ministries like this one and others showing us a way out. A tool God can use to get us free. I thank you Paul and everyone here because I bet you met many obstacles on your road to truth. Thank you for being faithful. English language words cannot begin to express how much you have done for me and I’m sure many, many others.
God bless you all…KimEnjoy your day...and always view others you see through Jesus specs!
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Speshul_K
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Re:Praying in the Spirit?? - 2007/02/07 00:53Paul wrote: Hi Kim, posted this reply as a blog Praying or Preying in the spirit…
If you’ve been following our web forums you will know that the question of “praying in the Spirit” has recently been a subject of discussion. Having followed those discussions I thought that there might be some value in opening the debate up to a wider audience. Reading the threads took me back to the brand of Christianity that I knew before I knew Jesus and made me shudder.
I often describe myself with reference to my past in Pentecostalism as being 7 years sober and in some ways that tongue-in-cheek [no pun intended] allusion to alcoholism fits rather neatly. I won’t bore you with the back-story, suffice to say that this ‘circle’ was raised in what is known as Four-Square Pentecostalism a robust evangelical environment in which truly saved spoke in tongues, heal, and busy themselves preparing planet earth for the arrival of the soon coming King which depending on whether you drunk the full or semi-skimmed version would not happen until the church has preached the Gospel to the entire world.
What disturbs me so much as I look back is that I was so dedicated to the whole depressing business, suppressing all my better instincts and only seeing the ‘facts’ that suited our paradigm. Anyway this is not meant to be a retrospective so let me stop there. The salient point being that when I left Pentecostalism I didn’t bring the household idols with me. As soon as I was able to put some distance between myself in the here and now & Pentecostalism in “the now and not yet” so to speak, I most urgently wanted to re-evaluate two things: firstly my ecclesiology [doctrine of the church – what it was and how we ‘do’ it] & secondly my pnuematology [doctrine of the Spirit]. What I discovered was that in order to reconstruct them I had first to completely deconstruct them.
I would not say that what has risen from the ashes of Pentecostalism is a fully matured view but it does feel to me that it is at least a view that is more consistent with the agape nature of God and the story of the New Testament.
One of the things that hastened my departure from Pentecostalism was the suicide of one of my former students. A gifted, but like so many who are attracted to Pentecostalism an impressionable and highly suggestible young man. We’ll call him Martin, [that was not his name], having graduated from the 1st year of the Bible College where I was the Director of Studies, Martin decided on the basis of a ‘prophecy’ that God had called him to give his life to a very remote part of the world and be their missionary. In common with just about every other person with a brain I counselled him not to go but to wait. I suggested that he attend the 2nd year in the college instead. I did not think that he was secure enough in his identity to embark on such an adventure and certainly wasn’t about to advocate that life for a newly wed. Anyway he didn’t heed my advice and left. Within a few months his wife returned to England and within a year he committed suicide. I will never forget attending that funeral. I will never forget his widow’s grief stricken face.
Now admittedly that is the most extreme example that I know. I have received and even given words of knowledge and prophecy which have proved to be edifying and confirming. However, that does not mask the fact that the particular expression that I was in vacillated between promoting a recklessness in which everyone speaks in the third Person and every sentence begins “Thus sayeth the Lord” or worse [maybe worse] is so controlled that only ‘the man of god’ can prophesy and if you want to give a word then you have to give it to the man and he will decide if it is from God or not but when he speaks he does so ex-cathedra. So what you end up with is living in a world that is either controlled or out of control. What you don’t have is any real evidence of the gift of the Spirit which is self-control; on the contrary the problem is that ‘self’ is very much in control.
Interestingly the greatest stumbling block for my wife who remained patiently aloof from the whole circus act thing was that she could never understand how tongues seemed to work on pastoral demand. So for instance we could be in a meeting and then the person leading it would say rather like a driving test examiner telling you to do an emergency break, “everybody speak in tongues” and bang there it was – this most insane ‘spirit’ language. Which she would always parody by saying “I’ll have a shandy in a rubber dinghy.” Inevitably we would be instructed that we needed to warfare or breakthrough or intercede or whatever and that we were to press-in and do battle so this insanity would be ratcheted up to fever pitch. I am sorry if this offends anybody but for the main and for the most it was nothing more than an insane babel. Depending on what type of meeting it was this could go on indefinitely. Never [or exceptionally rarely] would there be any interpretation of a tongue, [that I am sure is because not even God knew what we were saying] the chaos seemed completely at odds with the Apostle Paul’s teaching on tongues in 1 Corinthians. Invariably someone[s] normally the same ones would bring a predictable testimony about what God was going to do through this church and especially the pastor.
I don’t want to say it was nonsense but well it didn’t make a whole lot of sense that’s for sure. Needless to say when we began The Grace Project I for one was a bit sheepish about the whole issue of the charismatic and literally put it to one side for more than a year concluding that what I had experienced was more preying on that praying in the Spirit. I may have stayed a conscientious objector had it not been for some dear folk who themselves refugees from Pentecostalism found their way to The Grace Project and stayed three or four years, they more than anyone restored my faith in the possibility of a resonant charismatic practice. Although once again as we opened our hearts to these workings of the spirit our experience was very mixed and suffered from albeit fairly benign excesses, but in fairness there was also a lot of healing. Our version was a lot more elegant. Yes elegant is a good way of putting it. We saw a number of artistic people released into writing, drawing, singing, poetry – it was beautiful.
Where am I today seven years on? Well with certain caveats I am happy to admit to you that I am a cautious charismatic. I am sure that the operation of the gifts should be normative and very unremarkable but I also think that the gifts belong more in the context of community than mission.
From my study of the New Testament [which of course is highly subjective] my tentative conclusions are:
• I don’t accept the Pentecostal idea of that the baptism is subsequent to salvation. [That is entirely wrong we received everything pertaining to godliness at salvation.]
• I don’t accept the Pentecostal notion that tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Spirit. [The hallmark of God is love and more than that the bible specifically teaches that not all speak in tongues and if tongue speaking is the evidence of the spirit and you’ve no evidence how can you know you’re saved?]
• I understand the Spirit to be the agent and not the substance of baptism – the substance is and can only be Jesus.
• I do believe in the gift of tongues and all the gifts come to that but in respect tongues I think that tongues is more an intimate prayer language which I think is primarily designed to edify the person speaking in tongues which if so makes it very much the ‘lesser’ gift in the public setting where the main purpose is to edify others.
A real tongue twister ….
In a very real way Pentecostalism has a lot riding on the issue of tongues. Of course they are able to firmly anchor the gift of tongues in the New Testament. However, we need to be a little more objective in our approach to what actually happened in Acts. In the classical text – Acts 2 The Day of Pentecost it is sometimes overlooked that what happened in the Upper Room and then spilt over into the streets to the aghast onlookers does not remotely resemble what occurs today. Leaving aside the tongues of fire settling on the heads of those gathered in the Upper Room the nature of the episode was materially different from anything we see today.
You will recall that when those who were in the Upper Room spoke every one heard them in their own language. That was certainly not normative and certainly was not repeated even in the case of Cornelius’ household which many call Pentecost II. However, bizarrely there have been those outside the NT era for whom that was an entirely reasonable expectation. Witness the case of one Alfred Garr who hotfotted from Azusa St arrived in India and began preaching to the natives in what he believed to be their own languages. I seem to remember reading somewhere that even dear old Hudson Taylor went to China expecting to be given the gift of speaking Chinese.
When I read the Acts narrative it seems to me that tongues if anything were a sign to the unbeliever. Each episode seems to hint that. On one occasion the Jews disbelieve the apostles on another the Apostle Peter’s entourage can’t bring themselves to believe that the Gentiles have been accepted into the kingdom. It is not until we get to Paul’s first epistle to the Corinthians do we get a fuller orbed view of the gift of tongues. Intriguingly Paul’s gifts chapters 12 & 14 are sandwiched between his love chapter …. Which begins let me show you a more perfect way. And that seems to me to be the point. When I read the account of the Day of Pentecost I see the reversal of the curse of Babel the moment where the Lord confused the people languages so that none could understand each other. To me the Day of Pentecost reverses that by saying there is a new language – the language of indwelling agape and when we speak it to one another there is nothing that we cannot achieve.
I think that if you take the time to study the New Testament you will surprised how few references to the tongues there are. Outside the New Testament we seem to have a great period of silence [exceptions accepted] until 1901 and the birth of Pentecostalism. I have written a lengthy paper entitled Cain & Babel – Voices from the Past” which you can find on this site but suffice to say that the reflective conclusions of the fathers of the Welsh Revival seem to pertain here, namely that “much of what occurred in its intensity during the 1904-1905 Revival in Wales , should be attributed to demonic activity.”
My observation of the activity that I have witnessed in Pentecostalism accords with Jesse Penn-Lewis’ assessment of the Welsh Revival. As she put it in her most famous work War on the Saints “The Revival in Wales, which was a true work of God revealed numbers of honest souls were swept of their feet by evil supernatural powers which they were not able to discern from the true working of God.”
Agape
I reposted this to keep it at the top of this thread.Enjoy your day...and always view others you see through Jesus specs!
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It’s Red here again. Firstly let me apologise for taking so long to respond further on your issue of praying in the Spirit. I have been following the thread of the discussion and it may be that my thoughts are now redundant as in your last response to Paul you seemed much less confused than before. However, having promised you some reflections I will offer them to you for what they are worth. As I indicated in my first response, in light of your experiences I’m not at all surprised you were confused by this issue – tongues has in any case always been a bit of a minefield. Like Paul, I too have a background in charismatic circles, though I don’t think my experiences of tongues left me quite in Paul’s position of needing to be what he terms ‘seven years sober.’ Nevertheless, I do think that once I encountered the ‘Grace Message’ I too had to step back from my charismatic roots and evaluate the position of charismatic gifts in relation to the rest of my faith. Looking back I think most of the reason for confusion concerning the charismatic gifts arises because most of the time such gifts are received in the context of Law. By that I mean there is nothing wrong with the gift (In this case tongues) or the giver (God) or the recipient (in this case you or me – beloved children of God. The problems with such gifts arise because of the Law and myth that grows up around them. Tongues are presented to us as a gift – which they are – but our context of law requires us to then condition the gift e.g. · You must pray in tongues it is proof of baptism in the Spirit (it isn’t) · You must pray in tongues for spiritual warfare but Satan will be after you if you do ( actually I suspect most charismatics and non-charismatic Christians think Satan is after them anyway) · Use it or lose it (God will take it from you if you don’t use it or if you use it wrongly) – there’s a lose/lose situation if ever I heard one.
Is it any wonder then that people are confused?
I’m sure Speshul K you have either given a gift to someone or had someone give a gift to you in the past. Let’s say you gave a gift to a niece or nephew for their birthday. Have you ever gone back the next year and said “Before I give you a present this year I want to find out what you did with the one I gave you last year. Did you lose it or break it because if you did I’m not giving you your present this year.” I can’t remember having a conversation like that with anyone I’ve brought a present for, or someone having that conversation with me. Why not? Because a gift is a gift and is, (or should be at least), given out of love, unconditionally.
Remember Matthew 6:7-11) – God says here that even we (functioning in Eros) can give good gifts to our children so how much more will God (flowing in Agape) give.
It surely then follows that gifts given by God can’t lead us to a place of confusion or fear because “Perfect love casts out fear for fear has to do with punishment “ (1 John 4:18) Fear says: · God doesn’t love me unconditionally so I’d better not use this gift wrongly · Just in case I use this gift wrongly I’d better not use it at all · Because god doesn’t love me unconditionally I can’t not use my gift because God will be angry with me and take it away
Fear makes us self-conscious, and the more self-conscious we become the more fearful we are.
But Agape says:
· I love you and I’ve given you a gift · Whatever you do with that gift there is no condemnation in Agape (Rom 8:1) · There’s no disappointment in Agape so you cannot fail · Enjoy your gift.
Until we can see a gift as truly a gift, unconditionally given it will be a burden to us. You seemed in your last post to have come beyond that point Speshul K but if you should ever find that is not the case remember these things:
· God’s love is unconditional · He gave you your personal prayer language to enjoy no strings attached · If it is ever a burden to you lay it to one side – nothing will happen to you if you do
Agape
Red Red: Hi, I'm a freelance sports journalist and I've been a regular member of Grace West for almost four years with my wife Anne. I'm learning that sport is a God-given part of my DNA and I have a real heart to see the Grace message out in the sporting arena. If anyone else in the grace community connects with that thought please get in touch with me through the site.
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