Question about some verses of Hebrews - 2006/12/18 18:08 Hi veryone just one text about the grace and freedom wich I would apreciate some toughts or a debate:
Hbr 10:26 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Hbr 10:27 - But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Hbr 10:28 - He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Hbr 10:29 - Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
what do you guys understand of this verse about the spirit of grace and sinning willfully?
| | The administrator has disabled public write access.
Hbr 10:26 - If we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
I use to shudder with fear under my old understand of this verse, but if you read it with the rest of the passages this verse is really the opposite, for it is expounding upon the finished work on the cross.
The answer to Hbr 10:26 is found in verse Hbr 10: 12 12 But this Man (Christ), after He had offered “one sacrifice for sins forever”, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
If we wilfully sin there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, because our high priest (Christ) has offered one sacrifice for sins and the writer informs us that this sacrifice is forever. Christ has paid for all sins, past, present & future, by his one sacrifice on the cross (an eternal act)
(Verse 26) Therefore “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins” –
Why?
(Verse 14) For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Hope this helps,
Must go, anyone want to answer 27 - 29
Paul Franklin
| | The administrator has disabled public write access.
Yes, you are right it's a really intriguing passage of the bible.
But if you allow me, I would like to comment it and ask a question :
If I am not wrong, the autor comes talking about the sacrifice of Christ in the Cross, comparing it to the law sacrifices (verses 1-11), and says in the verse 12 how Jesus did only one sacrifice, and now we don't need many sacrifices or a high priest to do it every year, cause Jesus did one that was enough.
It's also important to notice how God was NOT beeing pleased with sacrifices (v.8) even if they were done according to the law!
My question: isn't the author comparing how the law's sacrifices were not pleasing God and how our willfull sins may not please God even if we have the one sacrifice of Jesus?
I personally understand that the whole passage is a big comparisson between the law and the Grace, and the consequences in both.
In the Grace of Jesus trough his blood,
Thiago
| | The administrator has disabled public write access.
Paul Anderson Walsh
Admin Admin
Posts: 19
Re:Question about some verses of Hebrews - 2007/01/04 00:51Dear Thiago, I see where you’re headed with your thoughts on Hebrews 10 so let me see if I can thread your logic through the single-eye of the mystical needle of faith. Okay, here goes. Firstly let me remind you of the context as I see it. 1. Personal perspective:
Hebrews was written to a group of people to who have the stomach ache that is the consciousness of their sins are in search of some medication to take make them feel better. They need a gos-pill one might say. The old, tried and tested family cure – one that has been handed down through the generations is to go the medicine cabinet and reach for the jar on the top shelf marked “Moses” take one three times and a day and wash it down with the blood of bulls and goats and you’ll be as right as rain.
The writer to the Hebrews has said that that prescription is not only a placebo it has been taken off the shelves of all the New Covenant pharmacists. Umm the Hebrews are sure they have some somewhere or at least know where they can get their hands on some and need to get some as they are going cold turkey.
2. Biblical Fact:
“For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” The first thing to say here is that if you have received the knowledge of the truth [which is Jesus and the mystery of his propitiation and the free gift of grace] then there no longer remains any sacrifice for sins. …Umm so what’s all this sacrificing for sins about then?
a) There is no sacrifice left b) The sacrificial system has become redundant [Hebs 10:18] c) Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins [Hebs 9:22] d) Jesus was and is the only acceptable sacrifice for sin [Hebs 10;10] e) Having been sacrificed for sin he has made forever perfect [Hebs 10:14]
“For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
3. In Pauline language the readers have fallen from grace [Gal 5] in such circumstances and having spurned the antidote to sin what is left apart from the “fearful expectation”
Q: Who is fearfully expectant? A: “the adversaries”
Now you can call a believer many things but certainly an enemy is not one of them. On the other hand you might like to take the view that they were not all believers? Anyway whether they were or they weren’t this much they all have in common While we were yet enemies Christ died for us [Roms 5] so any expectation is theirs it not God’s and is not the writer’s either.
Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
4. Here the point is even more forcefully made. Follow the logic with me a moment
• If you rejected Moses who is inferior in every conceivable way to Jesus then you were for the high-jump how much worse therefore do you think someone who tramples the Son of God under foot is worthy of?
Well obviously if death is the punishment befitting a relatively minor infraction then I simply don’t know what punishment befits this?
Ah exactly and that’s the mystery there is no punishment now for Jesus has taken it all. All that is left is the self-flagellation of the law.
Well then lets just tidy this up a bit:
Q: What is sinning wilfully? A: Well it is precisely what it says it’s living wilfully in unbelief. [that which is not of faith is sin] And unbelief comes in two different flavours. There is the Legalistic variety [i.e. nothing goes] or there is the licentious flavour [i.e.] anything goes. My guess is that the former is marginally worse than the latter] but both are sin and yet mercifully or rather gracefully both of the are Grace-proof “Where sin abounds grace abounds etc …
Q: What is the spirit of grace? A: It is the profound mystery of Christ that he is our all and is in all it is the counter-intuitive mystery of God by which wrong persons are made right-persons.
Now lets have a quick look at Hebrews 6 [excuse me rushing I am in the midst of the second book in the Until Christ is Formed trilogy so I am just snatching a few moments as I didn’t’ want to leave you hanging.
Alright here goes ……… I like see your objection to my abrogation point so let me ask you to try this on for size … Again I apologise if I am trying to push you through the door of my curious logic…. The ENTIRE law was fulfilled by Jesus in order that it could be cancelled toward us. [Col 2:13-14; 13 And when you were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive together with him, when he forgave us all our trespasses, 14 erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it. And again in Eph 2:14 14 For he is our peace; in his flesh he has made both groups into one and has broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility between us. 15 He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both groups to God in one body through the cross, thus putting to death that hostility through it. So by fulfilling it he abrogated it. Hence Paul says For Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. You see Jesus is the vicarious substitute. Hence it is really important to keep the law within its limits
Okay I am goiin to sign off with another extract this time from my book The Bonsai Conspiracy see what you think
THE LAW AND ITS LIMITATIONS
The Apostle Paul’s conviction of the “failure to produce righteousness both as right standing with God and as behaviour which conforms to the character of God”9 is deep-seated. However, the Law, in and of itself, has not failed. Its true genius lies not in the production of righteousness but in its unique ability to expose self-righteousness. The Apostle Paul did not underestimate the Law’s potency, having had his own guns spiked by it. The Law had discharged its necessary duty in the Apostle Paul who himself testified to its resounding success [Phil. 3:3-8]. Confusion occurs when the Law is taken beyond its limits, such as when it is employed as an instrument of –
The Law is a paidagôgos [Gal. 3:22-25], i.e. a tutor to lead Man to Christ through their failure to meet its standard [Rom. 7:7-11]. The goal of the Law is disillusionment. Progress in the Christian life is predicated on a crisis of self-confidence. Paradoxically, the observance of the Law is the necessary preamble to the freedom from it. In this regard, the Law and the Spirit collaborate as divinely-appointed co-conspirators to bring us to the recognition of our need of Christ. The Law’s vocation is that it “should convict Israel of sin”10. In addition, Jesus disclosed to the disciples that the Spirit was engaged in the same occupation of convicting Man concerning sin and guilt [John 16:8-11]. This is in contradistinction to the claims of the Agitators. The views at issue are summarised in the following diagram –
AGITATORS’ VIEW PAULINE VIEW Attempted Law observance will be rewarded with a life of blessing and Law infractions bring forfeiture of blessings. Attempted Law observance results in inevitable failure since its intrinsic blessing is to convict the Natural Man of his need for Jesus. The Law confers an important external status symbol. The Law exposes internal impotence and meaninglessness of the external status symbol. Would-be adherents would anticipate help from God. Would-be adherents recognise their helplessness before God.
Our inability to maintain the Law is its success, making its would-be adherents amenable to Christ’s purchased salvation. Only through the Law can a person die to the Law in order to live to Christ [Gal. 2:19; Rom. 8:1-4]. Having been redeemed from the Law [Gal. 4:4-5], the Galatians must not allow themselves to be enslaved by its yoke once again [Gal. 5:1] lest they place themselves under the curse of the Law [Gal. 3:10]. In my estimation, the curse is not so much the loss of acceptance by God but rather, it is the consequence of our refusal to accept or recognise what has been accomplished for us by Christ. Failure to appropriate our new life in Christ leaves us marooned in a wilderness of uncertainty, prevented by unbelief from entering into His rest [Heb. 4:1-11].
In Galatians 5, the Apostle Paul anticipates his thesis in Romans 5:11-8:39. Salvation liberates Man to a paradoxical servitude. The believer is transferred from being a slave to sin to being a slave to righteousness [Rom. 6:17-19]. This liberation is evidenced in loving one another [John 13:35] – men and women will either serve one another or devour one another [Gal. 5:15]. No common life is possible when all the individual components are centred on themselves. They simply devour one another.
Hope that helps Paul Anderosn-Walsh
| | The administrator has disabled public write access.
I will try to show my view of the text, wich I think does not match yours.
1. Introduction
I think the whole book of Hebrews is a big teaching to the Jews who accepted Christ and became part of the Grace. I think the Author is trying to show them how the law was and how the new covenant by the grace is.
I think the whole context of the entire book shows it. And these verses I pointed can be confirmed in other chapters, cause the same idea is repeated over and over .
2. Sinning willfully and Fearfull expectation
I think that the author is referring to the believers under the grace, that’s because of the previous verses :
Hbr 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised Hbr 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Hbr 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. Hbr 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
See, he’s talking to the Christian community and the believers, this is some kind of exhortation to the Christians to “hold on the profession of faith”, and the sinning willfully is not to enemies or non believers but to the ones that are living under the grace!
So in my opinion the fearful expectation are to the ones who are under the grace and that are serving the sin (rom 6:16) and the only result that can produce is the eternal condemnation.
HE repeats that same idea in other parts of the book, In the beginning:
Hbr 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Hbr 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
In the end of the book:
Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel. Hbr 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven:
So I really believe this book is inteded to the believers and to exort them to remain in the faith, cause if they do not do so, there’s only one fearfull expectation of death, and he is making a very strong statement about holding the confidence, wich we can read the same thing in several other parts of the new testament.
3. The Spirit of Grace
Well I think now we will have a bigger divergence, cause it think the author is quite clear about the ones who lived under the mosaic law and the ones who are now living under the grace.
I just want point out that as previously stated, these verses are exhortation to the believers and the one who were enlightened once and received the truth of the gospel, wich is stated in the verses 32 of that chapter:
Hbr 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Hbr 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. Hbr 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Hbr 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
So he’s talking not about enemys or non believers, but the ones that should hold on their faith and that should not cast away it!
That’s why, in my opinion, a believer can step over the blood of Christ serving the sin, wich means offering their lifes as servants not of the living God but to sin, and as you cannot serve both, you can only expect as reward eternal condemnation.
This same idea you can see not just in the book Hebrews but all over the new testament, specially in the gospels when Jesus is speaking about the new covenant, I could point out several texts from the Apostle Paul and the other writers too.
Well, I think this points a few divergences and could contribute to our debate and to have a clear and better understanding of the true gospel and the true grace.
4. The Hebrews 6 Controvery
About the Ephesians verses, I would point out that the word to abolish is Katargeo, wich means to “render ineffective”, and that’s why the reason you pointed out! Jesus fulfilled the law, that’s why it is now ineffective because the sacrifice was achieved for any sin, but it does not mean that it was abrogated, cause if it was, we could just completely ignore it in any terms, we could remove it from the bible, and take it only as a history book, a parallel one.
The Apostle Paul says that the law is good and saint, that it is shadows of the new covenant, a source of instruction and also the way to understand the concupiscence. I am also inclined to believe that as we are co-descendants of Abraham we can be co-participants in its promises, but without the law bounding, and that’s why I think we are under better promises.
The law as you pointed out is weak cause it could not remove sins. And without being born again like Jesus reveals to Nicodemus and having the Holy Ghost inside you are still bounded to sin! Cause only when God starts living inside of you you will have the so called contradiction, the combat between Flesh x Spirit – Pneuma x Psique, wich paul repeats in most his epistles, specially in Galatians 5/6.
The law although was trying to direct the person to do the right path (love God and the next) could not transform the person, because only the spirit can balance that, like paul explain in romans 8:
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Look how strong the last verse is! If we do not have the spirit of Chrsit we are not his! This same idea we find in hebrews 12:8:
Hbr 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
About the bonsai conspiracy text I just want to add a few questions:
“In Galatians 5, the Apostle Paul anticipates his thesis in Romans 5:11-8:39. Salvation liberates Man to a paradoxical servitude. The believer is transferred from being a slave to sin to being a slave to righteousness [Rom. 6:17-19]. This liberati on is evidenced in loving one another [John 13:35] – men and women will either serve one another or devour one another [Gal. 5:15]. No common life is possible when all the individual components are centred on themselves. They simply devour one another.”
If I am not understanding wrong you believe that now we have other commandments other then the law? Like love the next, so we have a “law” wich is not the mosaic law. Is it correct?
And if you do not do it? If you have faith but does not love God or the next person? What happens? You still go to heaven? You go to heaven just because you have faith in the sacrifice of Jesus? Even being a sinner you can still go to heaven?
Well I think your text helped the debate
In the peace of the Lord, Thiago
Post edited by: Thiago Souza, at: 2007/01/04 19:49
| | The administrator has disabled public write access.
paul franklin
Admin Admin
Posts: 4
Re:Question about some verses of Hebrews - 2007/01/05 08:44Hi again Thiago, I’m pleased you like the shout box! I also noticed that Paul W has replied to this question. I have deliberately not read his comments as I started to word my reply last week but haven’t had opportunity to post it.
Yes you are right, the Hebrews passage is a comparison between Law and Grace but as I seek to answer your question it would be helpful by way of introduction to explore the surrounding verses, this will give us further context to your question in Hebrews 10: 26 to 29.
As we know, the letter is written to the Hebrews with the intent of arguing that the judicial system along with the Law and its ordinance is now obsolete, now that a better and superior covenant has been established through Christ Jesus.
In the verses 1 through to 8 the author argues that God never delighted in the sacrificial system. Now to us, who are Gentile believers, whom the Law was not given (Rom 2:14), this matter may not seem too controversial but as a Hebrew believer whom had lived under the judicial system of offerings and sacrifices, this must have been an overwhelming statement. No more offerings or sacrifices!
In adding further weight to the writer’s argument he makes the following points in verse: -
v9 - He takes away the first (the Law) that He may establish the second (Grace).
v10 - We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all. - (The believer is now sanctified because of Christ!)
V12 - After He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever; he sat down at the right hand of God. - (Meaning that there are no more sins left for the believer to pay so Christ rests). v14 - For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. - (The believer is now perfect because of that one offering).
v16 - I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them. (Christ lives in the believer, Gal 2:20)
v17 - Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. (God does not remember or observe sins or lawless deeds anymore!)
Now after expounding upon the above, the writer is encouraging the Hebrew believers to start living in this new covenant way from verse 20 to 25.
Verse 26
Now we arrive at your previous question of ‘Wilfully Sinning’. I am not convinced that the author is drawing reference to verses 17 and 18 to add a clause to his previous comments of Gods total forgiven. Rather his description of ‘Wilfully Sinning’ is explained in the following verses but is described in verse 29.
To ‘Wilfully Sinning’ is to trample on the Son of God underfoot, counting the blood of the (new) covenant by which (the believer) was sanctified as common thing and insulting the spirit of grace.
In laymen terms this is a believer whom after receiving Christ returns to a judicial system of offerings and sacrifices; basically a totally reverse of 9 - 17.
v9 - Attempting to live under the Law. v10 - Trying to achieve sanctification by self effort. v12 - Attempting to deal with sin by good works. v14 - Attempting to perfect themselves by self-effort and sacrificial living. v16 - Keeping the ten commandment. v17 - Believing that God keeps a records of our sins.
Verses 28 –29: This person under the Law of Moses would die without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses but under grace, how much worse punishment, is ‘appropriate’ for a believer although “worthy”. Although the believer would be deserving of a worse punishment under law, they are ‘worthy’ because Christ has made him worthy under the new.
So in answering your question by the chapter, the author is comparing how the law's sacrifices were not pleasing to God and how trampling on the Son of God is to Wilfully Sin! Self-improvement, self-living, self-sacrificial living for God is to disrespect what Christ has done for us and insult the spirit of Grace.
Although God would be displeased with us under the Law, we are not under law but under grace and have been made ‘worthy’ because of the blood of the new covenant!
He has chosen to remember our sins and lawless deeds no more (v17), if the author of Hebrews is correct God cannot be disappointed with us for he is committed never to remember our sins.
bless ya,
Paul Franklin
Post edited by: Paul Franklin, at: 2007/01/05 16:30
| | The administrator has disabled public write access.
The Grace Project is a christian charity which is supported by its friends & ministry partners if you'd like to contribute why not click & make a donation online.
Hi veryone just one text about the grace and freedom wich I would apreciate some toughts or a debate:
what do you guys understand of this verse about the spirit of grace and sinning willfully?
