Well it is not going to surprise you to learn that I have little if no sympathy with your position on Hebrews, but let me pay you the courtesy of explaining why I feel this way.
I am allergic to fear-based religion and the slightest whiff of it normally brings me out in a rash. The greatest threat to the church of Jesus Christ is Galatianism [the mingling of law and grace]. Let’s have one or the other. If you read the letters of Paul especially Galatians you will know that this mixing of law and grace constitutes for him “another gospel”, which is no gospel at all.
I dislike it so passionately because it portrays God in a demonic light. Now I know that’s a strong thing to say but if Christianity is to be Christian then its hallmark, i.e. that which authenticates it is that it is 100% love; 100% law-free; 100% free of condemnation & 100% fear-free anything less is a dangerous counterfeit or as you might say in Brasil “falso” I am not about to buy into the 25 market version I am afraid [knock-off for those of you who aren’t from Brasil].
God is love and perfect love hath cast out fear because fear has to do with punishment and anyone who fears cannot be perfected in love. It is ironic is it not that those who promote fear –based faith as a means of attaining to holiness neglect the fact that fear drives men from God not to Him. Now, I say that anything that does not present Him as the God of 1 Cor 13 perverts Him. If you remove any one of the “bricks” that make up the wall of God’s nature the whole thing caves in; Love says Paul ……. [and John says God is love]
God is Agape Never Fails: [it always succeeds] Always Perseveres Always Hopes Always Trusts Always Protects Rejoices with the Truth Thinks not evil Keeps no records of Wrongs Cannot be provoked Is not Self-Seeking Is not Ignorant Love is not Proud Cannot Boast Cannot Envy Is kind Is Patient However, Agape is discontinuous with Religion because religion Induces Fear
To offer anything other than that is to coin your phrase “to stop over the blood” it is toxic and it is anti-Christ. So the moment I see God being depicted as intolerant I am on notice.
Now we must be careful because I can tell you that these convictions of mine are firmly embedded. [I know longer know what I know I have become one with it] reading your views I can see that your views are concretised too. Now if we are to learn to love each other it will not be as a result of arguing about Scripture. [I retired from doing that a long time ago – taking the Morpheus view that the beauty of what I believe is that it doesn’t require you to believe it in order to be true] You are free to believe what you will as am I. The important thing is that we are brothers. I say that because I am not minded to enter into an endless string of discussion unless it is profitable and edifying and building both of us up in love and the rest of the our community too.
So my friend I can’t promise you that you and I are going to see eye-to-eye and I hope that you’ll not take offence to what may seem a robust response. If you want to understand why we view Scripture the way that we do then I am here to help shed the little light that we have, but if you want to argue your point of view about religion then thanks but no thanks. [I have replied on the assumption that your heart is to understand our perspective.]
Okay here goes:
The most basic axiom of the New Covenant is that there is NO CONDEMATION and that nothing can separate us from the Love of God. You and I have different operating paradigms. My risk is a significant one. If I am wrong then I will have to apologise to God and say to Him that I am sorry Lord I thought that you were more loving than your really are. If those who subscribe to the “turn or burn” anti-security view are wrong then they will surely have to apologise for portraying him as the ogre of the universe.
Okay so I will be brief and just highlight a few points you’ve made
1. Introduction – OK so you think that this is a book written exclusively to Christians fair enough. Whether they are or they are not doesn’t alter the fact that NOBODY can live under two covenants at the same time.
2. Well I understand that you think that the writer is simply contrasting the two covenants but he is not. He is telling them that the Old one is obsolete and worthless and the new one is better in every way and since it has been abolished you can’t make a claim on it anyway.
3. Grace is a dispensation – Everyone is living under grace It – even if they are “under the law” if you see what I mean
4. Well I am sorry but the writer is very clear that the fearful expectation awaits the enemies... see v 10:27 that’s not up for grabs is it?
5. Well I don’t think I need to comment on your idea that if we step over the blood then our eternal reward is eternal condemnation [let me just ask you to reconcile that with Roms 8:1 and 1 Cor 13]
6. Let me add a post script about the Perseverance of the Saints that old Calvinistic chestnut. I think that the issue is not the perseverance of the saints but the perseverance of God. Salvation is not contingent upon whether I can hold on to him it is dependent on whether he can and will hold on to me – and He will believe me
I guess the real issue here is that in my mind we are not responsible for our salvation. Salvation is a work of God for man and not a work of man for God.
In respect to your Galatians 5 point. People don’t go to hell because they sin any more than people go to heaven because they don’t. Heaven is for people that accept the free gift of life and hell is for the folk that don’t’ I am more than comfortable if you want to hear me to say that I am under the “law” of love because that is not a code of conduct but rather an principle like gravity. It’s a spiritual rather than a natural law.
Hope that helpsPaul Anderosn-Walsh
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you’ll not take offence to what may seem a robust response.
Don't worry Pr Paul, we are brothers in Christ, and above any doctrinal diferences we may have that bounds us and makes us part of the same body!
[I have replied on the assumption that your heart is to understand our perspective.]
Yes Pastor, I am trying to figure it out and check what I believe, cause some friends that I care a lot are engaged in the grace project and I want to understand what they are believing know. I do this is the spirit of Agape that I have for them. We have discussed a few times and we did not agree on some things so I was trying to check what's the this group doctrine to better understand it, and if it is the case to exort myself or them to go to the true path of the Gospel, to hold on the right confession like the author of hebres says.
But if in any way I am disturbing the peace of the comunity I would gadly stop posting my views and questions, just ask me so and we could use another way (email?) or just stop debating. If you think it's not worth to debate the doctrine i will not take it as an offense at all.
I won't have any problem with this. I will still love you in the Agape, and we are still going to be brothers and co-participants of the grace.
I will wait a response from you Pr Paul, in order to keep posting.
Post edited by: Thiago Souza, at: 2007/01/05 18:01
Post edited by: Thiago Souza, at: 2007/01/05 18:03
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Paul Anderson Walsh
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Posts: 19
Re:Question about some verses of Hebrews - 2007/01/05 18:28I really appreciate the spirit of your response. Of course I am aware that you are connected to our group in Vinedho. There are few brothers and sisters that are more precious to me anywhere in the world so I am blessed by your concern for them. In such circumstances I am really happy to dialogue with you by way of the forum especially since the issues that you are raising are of wide interest. Ultimately you will have, as we all have had to accept that Grace is a mystery and that mystery is appropriated by revelation rather than perspiration however, the value of the perspiration for those who earnestly seek Him is that it has the happy effect of killing us – thus enabling us to come alive to the hope of glory – which is as you know Christ in us. So post away…. I do not always have a lot of time at my disposal so sometimes my replies may take longer than others but so long as our heart is to build one another up and not to tear down then lets us talk in the open – neither of us have anything to hide and much to gain.
Your brother in Christ Paul Anderson-WalshPaul Anderosn-Walsh
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Thanks for having such a patiente with someone like me, most people would not be willing to engage in such kind of debate.
(I know this post is very long, for wich I apologize, cause I know you don't have a lot of time but I felt it was necessary for the debate)
Well, You first assertion is: "The most basic axiom of the New Covenant is that there is NO CONDEMATION and that nothing can separate us from the Love of God."
This axiom is found in romans chapter 8 wich the Ap. Paul states:
Rom 8:1 ¶ [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
It's interesting to see how that the Ap Paul links the "NO CONDEMNATION" to the fact to the ones who now live after the spirit and not after the flesh.
But someone reading this verse only may think, ok... he's saying a consequence, and not anything like spiritual security, or your "salvation", he's just saying that we are now free to go after the spirit.
So i would reply saying: let's read the following verses!
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
WOW another interesting idea pops up! There's a Law coming from the Spirit wich has set us free! So we are no longer bounded to the mosaic law (law of sin) but to a law coming from the spirit (wich is life!)!
This same idea is repeated in rom 3:27 wich says about the law of faith, and also similar we find in the book of galatians 5:18 wich says:
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
It's interesting that this reflects the same idea of romans 8:1-2 that living after the spirit sets you free from the mosaic law!
But lets go on the romans chpater 8 cause more interesting things are in that passage:
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That verse I think could sintetize the whole book of romans and the book of galatians! That's what I think the ap. paul has been trying to explain in the two books.
And the idea is: under the mosaic law we would not be set free from the sin, cause the law of sin inhabits our flesh, and the mosaic law did not afect our interior! It could only guide, serve as a tutor to the right path. IT only showed what sin and concupiscience was but it could not remove that sins from your body, and that's what paul says in the previous chapter (chap 7:14-25).
But like verse 7:25 states thanks God because now under the grace we ARE FREE from the sin serving truly the law of God (yes we are now free to serve the LAW of God with our mind!):
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
That's quite interesting, because now under the grace and not the mosaic justification we can truly serve the law of God! And hows that possible? Jesus did everything for sure like verse 8:3 says, but what did he do in order that we can now serve God's law?
Well let's keep readin romans 8 to try to find out:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Wow another interesting thing! The rightouness of the law may be FULLFILLED in us! What an interesting idea! It's the same idea that Jesus says in Matew 5:17:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
What a beautifull thing, Jesus did not abrogate the law (like debated previously), but he fullfilled it! And now the Ap. Paul says that the rightouness of the law is fullfilled in us too under the grace! What a beutifull idea. And to understand it we can read the chapter 6 of romans and we will get the idea of the new rebirth! That trough FAITH (and faith only) we can die with Christ and ressurect with him to LIFE! Wow that's a beautifull gift from God (i.e: grace) .
Well, but let's go back to the chapter 8 cause even more interesting points are there:
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Well that's another axiom too! And what the consequences for those who walk after the flesh and after the spirit? Well let's see another verse:
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
WOWWWWW WOOWWW!
So we will die if we go after the flesh? Wow that's so curious! Now I think that Hebrews 10:26-29 is eccoing in my head so powerfully!
Now i think we can understand why we can't keep sinning willfully and why there won't remain any more sacrifice (singular! Jesus and his sacrifice)
And how steping over the blood of this new covenant can only produces a fearfulll expectation of DEATH!!!
But let's keep reading the chapter 8 of romans and do not stop yet:
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(I think I do not need to repeat anymore the enphasis of the Law of God and how it exist to us under the grace wich I repeat is NOT the MOSAIC law)
WOW we will be enemys against God? How come? Isn't God going to love me anymore? I am going to unplease him?
Paul explains why! in the flesh inhabits the sin (the flesh is not totally bad, but the sin inhabits it..) and the sin is enemy against God. So if you are led by the sin (flesh) you are becoming the enemy of God, because you will be sinning (and God is saint and cannot have comunion with sins)! And do you think He wiil be happy with you?
We died with Christ and now we ressurect free of the sin, because the Spirit inhabits us now! And now we have the inner man wich creates a conflict, wich Ap Paul repeats over and over, specially in galatians 6!
And the idea of sinning willfully is neglecting the sacrifice of Christ and not ressurecting with Christ like the next verses of the chapter 8 clearly states (repeating chapter 6):
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Wow I am not His if I do not have the Spirit of Christ? What an interesting thing, this is exactly what Jesus says in John chapter 15:
Jhn 15:1 ¶ I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. Jhn 15:9 ¶ As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. Jhn 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full. Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Sorry but I needed to put all the verses because it complements sooo perfectly the idea of romans!
It would demand another huge post just comenting this sinlge passage of Jesus, but I will only highlight a few ideas for now:
Jesus is the vine (the head of the body, the foundation of the building, the groom..) and if we abide in him we shall have eternal life but if we not so we will be trown away and we will be burnt! (now i think this turning and burning idea is explained isn't it?)
But STOP! Am I saying that it is performance based gospel? NO!!!!! I am not!!!
But why does Jesus says we have to produce fruits? By the same reason James says faith without works are dead! It does not mean that you have to perform to God! But then why?
Because if you died with Christ and ressurect with him it is impossible to DO NOT produce fruits!!!! And that what james says! I show my faith trough my works, not that works will save me! That's something that matches the idea of going after the spirit and tthe verse 9 of romans 8! How can God dweell in you if you do not produce fruits?????? I mean ANY fruits at all!!!
See Jesus is not saying: for every sin you make you should produce one fruit! NOOO that's the Roman Catholic church that says it! Not the bible!
Jesus says for you to abide in him trough faith, and you will naturally produce fruits!
We have a spiritual law, wich is the comandment that Jesus gave: love the next! That's our law. Not circuncision or not touching eating something... like Ap Paul fought so hardly to change the jews mind's.
It's not the mosaic law but a new better law, a perfect one that sintetises the mosaic law: LOVE!
(PS: It's the circuncision of heart! That the flesh is circuncidated from our lifes! And that we go after the Spirit and have life - loving God above all things and the next like yourself!)
See we are not that far from our doctrines, that's why I said we have a lot in commom but some details don't match altough it might be very close!
So I will try to conclude my idea or I will write a book in this post! (i still could be talking for many more paragraphs but I think this is substance enough for a debate!)
So now what does Hebrews 10:26-29 has to do with Romans 8 and John chapter 15?
1) We died with Christ trough FAITH! 2) We are now abiding in Him. (we are ressurected in his death) 3) being so we will naturally produce fruits (galatians 5 - fruit of the spirit) 4) If we do not produce fruits we are only being led by flesh (wich is sin) (flesh works - galatians 5) 5) If we do not produce fruits we are sinning willfully 6) If we sin willfully we can only expect death! Like hebrews 10:29 says, and John 15:6, and like romans 8:9 says.
Well i think this sumarizes my idea presented in this post. Hope It helps to light our path in this debate.
(I am sorry i could not coment all your post. I was planning to do it, but just your first statement kept me busy and made me write soo much! I intend to coment it later)
In the precious love of Christ,
Thiago
Post edited by: Thiago Souza, at: 2007/01/09 00:27
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WOOWWW! 
(i still could be talking for many more paragraphs but I think this is substance enough for a debate!)